+ Reply to Thread
Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 LastLast
Results 41 to 60 of 61

Thread: Mandates and Korea

  1. #41
    Field Marshal Rylock's Avatar
    Crusader Kings IIDarkest HourEU3 CompleteDivine WindHearts of Iron III
    Heir to the ThroneVictoria 2

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Edmonton, Canada
    Posts
    8,365
    Quote Originally Posted by ayafox View Post
    To player, ruling party changes is nothing, Prussian Constitutionalism allows you to appoint the ruling party despite vote result. To AI, some events might work.
    So... you're suggesting we should make France a Prussian Constitutionalism government, and then create events for the AI to change the ruling party and invalidate the elections that differ a PC from Absolute Monarchy?

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Rylock View Post
    So... you're suggesting we should make France a Prussian Constitutionalism government, and then create events for the AI to change the ruling party and invalidate the elections that differ a PC from Absolute Monarchy?
    Wow, sounds a lot like a system of government where one person ignores the political will of everyone else in government, and does what s/he wants anyway, kinda like an absolute monarchy.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Rylock View Post
    So... you're suggesting we should make France a Prussian Constitutionalism government, and then create events for the AI to change the ruling party and invalidate the elections that differ a PC from Absolute Monarchy?
    At least it will be more historical to the France case. And eventually we find a way to solve the flag fault.

  4. #44
    General Hibernian's Avatar
    Crusader Kings IIEuropa Universalis 3Divine WindFor the MotherlandHearts of Iron III
    HOI3: Their Finest HourHeir to the ThroneEuropa Universalis III: In NomineEU3 Napoleon's AmbitionNaval War: Arctic Circle
    Rome GoldSemper FiVictoria 2Victoria II: A House DividedMount & Blade: Warband

    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Dublin, Ireland
    Posts
    2,142
    I'm no expert on the Second French Empire, but it wasn't an Absolute Monarchy in the same way as Tsarist Russia was, was it? I think Pruss Const. is probably appropriate.

  5. #45
    Field Marshal Rylock's Avatar
    Crusader Kings IIDarkest HourEU3 CompleteDivine WindHearts of Iron III
    Heir to the ThroneVictoria 2

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Edmonton, Canada
    Posts
    8,365
    Well, it's good to know everyone has suddenly changed their mind after the last argument over why it had to be Presidential Dictatorship.

    If Naselus wants to change it, then so be it. I see no reason to.

  6. #46
    Ok, I don't mean to be a hardass, but this thread is called Mandates & Korea, not "French government type". Anyway I think there was another thread concerning this.

    As for Korea, I really don't care anymore. All that needs to happen is that Korea-Chinese relations should be bumped up to above 150 and Russia should stop trying to conquer it, and instead try to put them into their sphere instead (clashing with Japan).
    Yes in an ideal world Korea would be a puppet of China, but Rylock hates them so much, and I can easily make the change myself, so whatever.

  7. #47
    Field Marshal Rylock's Avatar
    Crusader Kings IIDarkest HourEU3 CompleteDivine WindHearts of Iron III
    Heir to the ThroneVictoria 2

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Edmonton, Canada
    Posts
    8,365
    Quote Originally Posted by The Turk2 View Post
    Ok, I don't mean to be a hardass, but this thread is called Mandates & Korea, not "French government type". Anyway I think there was another thread concerning this.

    As for Korea, I really don't care anymore. All that needs to happen is that Korea-Chinese relations should be bumped up to above 150 and Russia should stop trying to conquer it, and instead try to put them into their sphere instead (clashing with Japan).
    Yes in an ideal world Korea would be a puppet of China, but Rylock hates them so much, and I can easily make the change myself, so whatever.
    Hey, now. I'm not the one who hates vassals.

    Insofar as France goes, I'll point out that you *did* bring it up on page 2. Probably why it was commented on. But there's no need to continue hijacking your intended discussion.

    Anyhow, with regards to your last post: the changes to Lebanon were made two versions ago. Any changes otherwise made to the Orient are Naselus' to decide (that is who you were responding to, and he's without Internet for a bit, so you'll need to wait for a response). He also had ideas about Persian events, though I imagine some of what you suggested on that front might be do-able. Persia's relations with Russia were fixed in the last version.

    I can indeed increase Korea's relations with Qing. Will add that into 3.07.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by The Turk2 View Post
    Ok, I don't mean to be a hardass, but this thread is called Mandates & Korea, not "French government type". Anyway I think there was another thread concerning this.

    As for Korea, I really don't care anymore. All that needs to happen is that Korea-Chinese relations should be bumped up to above 150 and Russia should stop trying to conquer it, and instead try to put them into their sphere instead (clashing with Japan).
    Yes in an ideal world Korea would be a puppet of China, but Rylock hates them so much, and I can easily make the change myself, so whatever.
    I suggest we could add some events to reflect Korea Question. Now we have some events for First Sino-Japanese War, but we have nothing for Russo-Japanese War, which could be made later.

    Rylock opposed to make Korea a Chinese puppet on account of puppet's duty to join the war to defend suzerain, which both might make some trouble and is not true in history. Chinese Empire had a great tributary system, but thoese tributes were not puppets as they still had independent diplomacy besides Tibet(was more similar to an actual satellite in Qing's indirect control). Even if we make Chinese tributary system in APD, events will be better, not puppet.
    Last edited by ayafox; 04-07-2012 at 09:17.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Rylock View Post
    Hey, now. I'm not the one who hates vassals.
    So then why don't you just make them a puppet then?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rylock View Post
    Insofar as France goes, I'll point out that you *did* bring it up on page 2. Probably why it was commented on. But there's no need to continue hijacking your intended discussion.
    I mentioned it in passing, but in truth his flag should be changed, the fleur-de-lis does not belong on a flag for a Presidential Dictatorship.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rylock View Post
    Anyhow, with regards to your last post: the changes to Lebanon were made two versions ago. Any changes otherwise made to the Orient are Naselus' to decide (that is who you were responding to, and he's without Internet for a bit, so you'll need to wait for a response).
    Well I have not been able to download the new version yet, but I checked the changelog and did not see any changes, did you just forget to place it in? What changes did you make exactly? Did you change the flags as well?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rylock View Post
    He also had ideas about Persian events, though I imagine some of what you suggested on that front might be do-able. Persia's relations with Russia were fixed in the last version.
    Yes I just noticed, I just hope it will stop them from eating up Persia, and instead the Russians will sphere them instead. But the relationship between Persia/UK and Persia/Russia should be enhanced even more. Also does oil appear in Persia at the beginning of the 20th century?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rylock View Post
    I can indeed increase Korea's relations with Qing. Will add that into 3.07.
    Please do!

    Quote Originally Posted by ayafox View Post
    Rylock opposed to make Korea a Chinese puppet on account of puppet's duty to join the war to defend suzerain, which both might make some trouble and is not true in history. Chinese Empire had a great tributary system, but thoese tributes were not puppets as they still had independent diplomacy besides Tibet(was more similar to an actual satellite in Qing's indirect control). Even if we make Chinese tributary system in APD, events will be better, not puppet.
    Frankly I don't care anymore, I have made Korea a puppet of China in my own game, and it works much better. Sure Korea does declare war on China's enemies, but that doesn't mean much anyway since they don't do anything, and in truth they were hostile to the Japanese, Russians, British just as the Chinese were, so I don't understand why they can't also be hostile as well? I don't think a tributary system will be installed, so the puppet system is the closest to it, as is used for Tunisia/Ottomans and China/Tibet. Tunisia as I said had its own government, civil service, constitution, army etc, but it is represented as a puppet, so why can't Korea be represented as a puppet to China?

    And yes I agree a more focused "Korea Question" event is needed to flesh out the future of the Korean state (otherwise it stays stagnant the entire game or is absorbed by Russia, and I hate both outcomes equally.

  10. #50
    Field Marshal Rylock's Avatar
    Crusader Kings IIDarkest HourEU3 CompleteDivine WindHearts of Iron III
    Heir to the ThroneVictoria 2

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Edmonton, Canada
    Posts
    8,365
    Quote Originally Posted by The Turk2 View Post
    So then why don't you just make them a puppet then?
    Because Naselus dislikes them. We are not the same person.

    I mentioned it in passing, but in truth his flag should be changed, the fleur-de-lis does not belong on a flag for a Presidential Dictatorship.
    It's not a Presidential Dictatorship. It's an Absolute Monarchy. Seeing as the primary difference between the two is the monarch part (which 'Emperor' qualifies as), that's why it's set as that. I might change the flag, though, since people keep whining about it. Seriously. God forbid Wikipedia show a different flag for Napoleonic France.

    Well I have not been able to download the new version yet, but I checked the changelog and did not see any changes, did you just forget to place it in? What changes did you make exactly? Did you change the flags as well?
    It's in the 3.0.4 changelog. Lebanon's been reduced to a single tag (as opposed to "Christian Lebanon" and "Muslim Lebanon"), and yes, the flags were changed.

    Yes I just noticed, I just hope it will stop them from eating up Persia, and instead the Russians will sphere them instead. But the relationship between Persia/UK and Persia/Russia should be enhanced even more. Also does oil appear in Persia at the beginning of the 20th century?
    We can't direct the AI short of events simply adding influence/relations. Naselus says he has plans for Persia, so I'll leave it to him. As for oil, I've no idea. There's a whole list of provinces which gain oil in the Goods event list. Persia could be in there.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Rylock View Post
    Because Naselus dislikes them. We are not the same person.
    Well aren't you part of the team as well? If your fine with them, then you have to make an exception for Korea to be a puppet of China as well, just like with Tunisia and the Ottomans. A completely independent Korea, which modernizes quickly is really ahistorical, can't you make an executive decision on this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rylock View Post
    It's not a Presidential Dictatorship. It's an Absolute Monarchy. Seeing as the primary difference between the two is the monarch part (which 'Emperor' qualifies as), that's why it's set as that. I might change the flag, though, since people keep whining about it. Seriously. God forbid Wikipedia show a different flag for Napoleonic France.
    Oh right, (sorry I've been playing too much HoI 3 recently ) well I do encourage you to change the flag. The only time I ever see France turn into an Absolute Monarchy is when the Napoleon III event fires, so the flag should just be his imperial standard, as Louis Phillipe I (The guy before Napoleon III, who is ruler of France in 1836) used the French tricolour.

    Here is Napoleon III special flag, which should replace the old Bourbon Fleur-de-lis for the Absolute Monarchy:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Im...3%A9on_III.svg

    Or frankly you could just continue to use the French Tricolour, as the flag above was technically the personal flag of Napoleon III, not necessarily representing the entire Second Empire.

  12. #52
    Just about the French Flag, it's completely fine to put the tricolor flag as the flag of the absolute monarchy. The July Monarchy didn't dare to change it and I think it's pretty safe to assume even the most reactionary regime would not get rid of it.

  13. #53
    Field Marshal Rylock's Avatar
    Crusader Kings IIDarkest HourEU3 CompleteDivine WindHearts of Iron III
    Heir to the ThroneVictoria 2

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Edmonton, Canada
    Posts
    8,365
    Quote Originally Posted by The Turk2 View Post
    Well aren't you part of the team as well? If your fine with them, then you have to make an exception for Korea to be a puppet of China as well, just like with Tunisia and the Ottomans. A completely independent Korea, which modernizes quickly is really ahistorical, can't you make an executive decision on this?
    This is Naselus' mod, not mine. He prefers not to use vassals whenever possible, and has made his decision on this, and I'm fine with it.

    The only time I ever see France turn into an Absolute Monarchy is when the Napoleon III event fires, so the flag should just be his imperial standard, as Louis Phillipe I (The guy before Napoleon III, who is ruler of France in 1836) used the French tricolour.
    I tried using the Napoleonic standard once before... it just looks really messy when rendered as a small flag. Honestly, I don't place much importance on which flag is showing. To me (and, I imagine, to Naselus), any monarchy flag will do. I like seeing the monarchy flag being different than the regular flag, personally, but I'm also tired of discussing it. Whatever I change it to, I'm sure someone else will show up before long deciding that it must change to something else.

    Because that's how we roll, apparently.

  14. #54
    General Hibernian's Avatar
    Crusader Kings IIEuropa Universalis 3Divine WindFor the MotherlandHearts of Iron III
    HOI3: Their Finest HourHeir to the ThroneEuropa Universalis III: In NomineEU3 Napoleon's AmbitionNaval War: Arctic Circle
    Rome GoldSemper FiVictoria 2Victoria II: A House DividedMount & Blade: Warband

    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Dublin, Ireland
    Posts
    2,142
    About the Korea-Qing thing, you could try to represent the relationship without making them a puppet at the start.

    For instance every few years there could be an event/decision that pops up for Korea saying something like "The Qing Empire demands Tribute from us" and Korea has a choice of either accepting; which increases relations between the two countries and takes a large amount of money from Korea and gives it to China, or rejecting, which lowers relations and maybe gives the Qing and CB against Korea (maybe a "Make Puppet" CB).

    Then you could also have a system where if any GP takes Korea into it's sphere, Qing China has a chance to react, perhaps delivering an ultimatum to the GP; "Get out of Korea, or else!", if they refuse then the Qing get a CB to remove Korea from their sphere, etc.

    Something like that would be acceptable, wouldn't it?

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Hibernian View Post
    About the Korea-Qing thing, you could try to represent the relationship without making them a puppet at the start.

    For instance every few years there could be an event/decision that pops up for Korea saying something like "The Qing Empire demands Tribute from us" and Korea has a choice of either accepting; which increases relations between the two countries and takes a large amount of money from Korea and gives it to China, or rejecting, which lowers relations and maybe gives the Qing and CB against Korea (maybe a "Make Puppet" CB).

    Then you could also have a system where if any GP takes Korea into it's sphere, Qing China has a chance to react, perhaps delivering an ultimatum to the GP; "Get out of Korea, or else!", if they refuse then the Qing get a CB to remove Korea from their sphere, etc.

    Something like that would be acceptable, wouldn't it?
    Woo, I'm sure events will do a great job in reflecting Chinese tributary system. We could even apply the events to more countries, like Đại Nam, Ryukyu. Ryukyu may be a little different as it has been the Satsuma's actual puppet (I'm disappointed for Ryukyu is totally independent in APD)while it's still an norminal tribute to China.

  16. #56
    General
    Crusader Kings IIDarkest HourEU3 CompleteDivine WindHOI3: Their Finest Hour
    Heir to the ThroneMarch of the EaglesSengokuVictoria 2Victoria II: A House Divided

    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    The worlds biggest town in the middle of nowhere
    Posts
    1,712
    Quote Originally Posted by Rylock View Post
    Because Naselus dislikes them. We are not the same person.
    *GASP*
    On another note, we need more events for the Russo-Japanese Wars, I had the japanese declaring war on them every 5 years, and even when the most eastern part of Russia was cut off (Dismantling, wooo!) there was still no territorial gains, and Ukraine beat them in a war, that is how weak they were.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Archam View Post
    Just about the French Flag, it's completely fine to put the tricolor flag as the flag of the absolute monarchy. The July Monarchy didn't dare to change it and I think it's pretty safe to assume even the most reactionary regime would not get rid of it.
    That is absolutly correct, King Louis Phillipe I did not fly the Bourbon fleur-de-lis nor did his 1848 successor Napoleon III.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rylock View Post
    I tried using the Napoleonic standard once before... it just looks really messy when rendered as a small flag. Honestly, I don't place much importance on which flag is showing. To me (and, I imagine, to Naselus), any monarchy flag will do. I like seeing the monarchy flag being different than the regular flag, personally, but I'm also tired of discussing it. Whatever I change it to, I'm sure someone else will show up before long deciding that it must change to something else.
    Ya, I was thinking that too, fine just forget about the Napoleonic standard, as I said it was more of a personnel banner, then one which would represent the French Republic/Empire. I'm surprised you said that, considering that this is supposed to be a more historically accurate Vic II game. As mentioned above the Fleur-de-lis is terribly wrong, as it brings back bad memories of what the Republic had to fight against. And considering that Napoleon III is the only absolute monarch France will ever get, (since I think we can agree it was historically implausible that there would be a Bourbon resurgence), then the French Tricolour will do just fine for the Absolute Monarchy of Napoleon III (since technically it was still the flag). Also I don't think anyone will challenge you on this, once you show them the evidence that after the July Monarchy the Fleur de lis was never flown again. Anyway I have only read complaints against the fleur-de-lis, with supporters in this forum for the French Tricolour to be used to represent Napoleon III coup.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hibernian View Post
    About the Korea-Qing thing, you could try to represent the relationship without making them a puppet at the start.

    For instance every few years there could be an event/decision that pops up for Korea saying something like "The Qing Empire demands Tribute from us" and Korea has a choice of either accepting; which increases relations between the two countries and takes a large amount of money from Korea and gives it to China, or rejecting, which lowers relations and maybe gives the Qing and CB against Korea (maybe a "Make Puppet" CB).

    Then you could also have a system where if any GP takes Korea into it's sphere, Qing China has a chance to react, perhaps delivering an ultimatum to the GP; "Get out of Korea, or else!", if they refuse then the Qing get a CB to remove Korea from their sphere, etc.

    Something like that would be acceptable, wouldn't it?
    I mean this would be great, but it just seems so much easier to make them a puppet period. Sure Korea declares war against China's enemies, but I have never seen them attack outside Korea. Frankly the Sino-Japanese war, the Russo-Japanese war, all were fought in and around Korea, making Korea a common battlefield. Hence why I don't understand why its so bad for Korea to fight for China against Japan or the Russians. But as I said I've made them a puppet in my game, and its worked out fine, although I hope Naselus and Rylock also decide to make the change formally.

    Quote Originally Posted by ayafox View Post
    Woo, I'm sure events will do a great job in reflecting Chinese tributary system. We could even apply the events to more countries, like Đại Nam, Ryukyu. Ryukyu may be a little different as it has been the Satsuma's actual puppet (I'm disappointed for Ryukyu is totally independent in APD)while it's still an norminal tribute to China.
    Ya, I've also wondered why Ryukyu is considered to be a free state, shouldn't it be a puppet? Or I guess as Hiberian said it could be part of a tributary system of events for China, which would break down once the Celestial Empire is overthrown (which does not seem to happen very often; if someone could confirm this)

    Quote Originally Posted by Connor Mulhern View Post
    On another note, we need more events for the Russo-Japanese Wars, I had the japanese declaring war on them every 5 years, and even when the most eastern part of Russia was cut off (Dismantling, wooo!) there was still no territorial gains, and Ukraine beat them in a war, that is how weak they were.
    I totally agree here. Japan fights futially against a Russian monster, and even after capturing a ton of provinces, winning a lot of victories on the sea and on land, and when it comes time for peace they get chicken scratch. Usually though they don't do so well, and Russia is somehow able to transfer a s*** ton of troops eastward and somehow lands on their territory without a problem. Frankly one good Russo-Japanese war event, which if the Japanese wins secures all their territorial goals would be ideal. Historically Japans victory over the Russian fleet in 1905 led to Revolution in Russia and they were able to secure all their goals. If this could be somehow simulated by an event, that would be perfect.
    The real Russo-Japanese Treaty:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Portsmouth

  18. #58
    Field Marshal Rylock's Avatar
    Crusader Kings IIDarkest HourEU3 CompleteDivine WindHearts of Iron III
    Heir to the ThroneVictoria 2

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Edmonton, Canada
    Posts
    8,365
    Quote Originally Posted by The Turk2 View Post
    I'm surprised you said that, considering that this is supposed to be a more historically accurate Vic II game.
    People will pull out "historical accuracy" at the drop of a hat, however. While historical accuracy is important (and thus APD is more historically accurate than the base game), it's not the most important thing. There's balanced gameplay, aesthetics, game mechanics-- and the personal time and effort involved in making changes-- that take precedence over historical accuracy. And that's ignoring the fact that "historical accuracy" is bit of an oxymoron considering how much of it is subjective or even contradictory.

    The only time there seem to be arguments, in fact, are when someone decides that their version of historical accuracy must take precedence over every other consideration... or when they don't accept that final say over what gets priority rests with Naselus (or, failing his involvement or interest, with me).

    But, no, pulling out "historical accuracy" as an argument is not the final word on anything.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Rylock View Post
    People will pull out "historical accuracy" at the drop of a hat, however. While historical accuracy is important (and thus APD is more historically accurate than the base game), it's not the most important thing. There's balanced gameplay, aesthetics, game mechanics-- and the personal time and effort involved in making changes-- that take precedence over historical accuracy. And that's ignoring the fact that "historical accuracy" is bit of an oxymoron considering how much of it is subjective or even contradictory.

    The only time there seem to be arguments, in fact, are when someone decides that their version of historical accuracy must take precedence over every other consideration... or when they don't accept that final say over what gets priority rests with Naselus (or, failing his involvement or interest, with me).

    But, no, pulling out "historical accuracy" as an argument is not the final word on anything.
    I understand that, (hence the Korea issue), but this is just a small flag change, will it make that much of a difference, except enhance the Napoleon III returns event?

  20. #60
    Field Marshal Rylock's Avatar
    Crusader Kings IIDarkest HourEU3 CompleteDivine WindHearts of Iron III
    Heir to the ThroneVictoria 2

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Edmonton, Canada
    Posts
    8,365
    Quote Originally Posted by The Turk2 View Post
    I understand that, (hence the Korea issue), but this is just a small flag change, will it make that much of a difference, except enhance the Napoleon III returns event?
    I already said I was changing it. My only comment was that not having the flag change at all is a bit boring, and that chances are someone will come along within a month or two and get up in arms about it. I imagine the first response will be someone who's upset/confused that the flag doesn't change after the coup.

    But whatever. Clearly a vital issue of great concern that shakes the very foundation of historical plausibility.

+ Reply to Thread
Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts