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Thread: Ars Lingua Beta!

  1. #1
    Scio quod nesciam. MrTaxman's Avatar
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    Ars Lingua Beta!

    Time for some beta tests! Ars Lingua now has a large list of languages and scripts that your country now gets to play with. I would appreciate it if anyone would point out anything that isn't working, so that I can get it fixed ASAP.

    Still to be fixed:
    • Modifier icons (more to add, need to adjust existing)
    • Add Country + International effects of language

    Here is the beta

    Languages
    • Albanian
    • Amharic (Ethiopian)
    • Arabic - Al Arabbiyah
    • Armenian
    • Azerbaijani
    • Basque - Euskara
    • Brezhoneg - Breton
    • Bulgarian
    • Castillian
    • Catalan
    • Chagatay - Jagatay
    • Chinese
    • Cymraeg - Welsh
    • Czech - Bohemian
    • Danish
    • Deudsch - Late Middle German
    • English
    • Estonian
    • Finnish
    • French
    • Gaeilge - Irish
    • Galician
    • Greek
    • Hungarian - Magyar
    • Illyric - Old Serbo-Croatian
    • Italian
    • Japanese
    • Kipchak - Language of Tartars
    • Korean
    • Latin
    • Latinus - Mozarabic
    • Latvian
    • Lithuanian
    • Mongolian
    • Navarro
    • Norwegian
    • Prusiskan (Old Prussian)
    • Persian
    • Polish
    • Portugese
    • Romanian
    • Russian
    • Ruthenian
    • Schlesian
    • Scots
    • Swedish
    • Turkish


    Scripts (includes some historical scripts, just for kicks)
    • Arabic
    • Armenian
    • Brahmic - This is an umbrella term, there may be too many to work with directly
    • Coptic
    • Cyrillic
    • Demotic
    • Diwani Arabic
    • Ge'ez
    • Glagolitic
    • Hangul
    • Hanzi
    • Hebrew
    • Hellenic
    • Jurchen
    • Latin
    • Mongol
    • Runic
    • Uyghur It will work, but it's not getting its own icon, for now


    You now have the option to try to change the provincial script and provincial language of your provinces that do not share your national script/language if they are cores and have your national focus. I *believe* that every language in this list is working.

    I know that this list is not exhaustive - but eventually I want it to be. If you have a suggestion for a language/script to be added, let me know why and where it belongs.

    EDIT: I have added the Georgian language and Kartuli (Georgian) script. They'll work if everything else works, and will be included in the initial release.
    Last edited by MrTaxman; 19-05-2012 at 16:40.
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  2. #2
    Scio quod nesciam. MrTaxman's Avatar
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    Ain't nobody gonna tell me where I got things wrong? Not a single one of you has any ideas for effects? The world completely lacks anyone who will comment!?!

    EDIT - In particular I would like some input into SE and South Asia... I'm just not sure how to handle those areas properly.
    Last edited by MrTaxman; 20-05-2012 at 08:00.
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  3. #3
    Field Marshal pirro's Avatar
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    It lacks aragonese, which was more similar to castillian than to catalan
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  4. #4
    Scio quod nesciam. MrTaxman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pirro View Post
    It lacks aragonese, which was more similar to castillian than to catalan
    I do want to add Aragonese - but it is what Navarro grew into... and I am not sure yet how to model that occurrence. But yes, Aragonese will be added.
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  5. #5
    I'll comment only to say I want to try this out eventually but am knee deep in map editing atm. Cool idea.

  6. #6
    Looks interesting, but no native American languages?

  7. #7
    Scio quod nesciam. MrTaxman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redgreen99 View Post
    I'll comment only to say I want to try this out eventually but am knee deep in map editing atm. Cool idea.
    In your own time, red
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  8. #8
    Scio quod nesciam. MrTaxman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CivOasis View Post
    Looks interesting, but no native American languages?
    I am now compiling a list of languages to add to the mod. Currently it is only in beta stages, so it is missing a fairly large amount of content. I am just trying to make sure the mechanics work correctly

    If you (or anyone) can think of a language or script that should be included - let me know. I already have a list of about 50-60 more languages that deserve to be added *a large-ish amount of work* so adding a few hundred more isn't going to be a problem

    P.S. Iroquois, Mvskoke, Nahuatl, Mayan and Runasimi are all on the list of languages to add.
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  9. #9
    The Iroquois and Mayan languages are actually large families - you probably aren't interested in adding them all, but I'd err towards a more specific term.

    Quechua and Aymara are the obvious two, for the Andes.

  10. #10
    Scio quod nesciam. MrTaxman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CivOasis View Post
    The Iroquois and Mayan languages are actually large families - you probably aren't interested in adding them all, but I'd err towards a more specific term.

    Quechua and Aymara are the obvious two, for the Andes.
    I knew that they were families - but (sadly?) some of those minor dialects were, to be honest, unimportant. Of course I would love to have every single language on the planet represented, but the draw on your computer would eventually become too much.

    Also, a little point about language "families" - sometimes they considered themselves to be the same language, even though there were definitely dialects(Niederdeutsch continuum), while other languages could speak nearly identical "dialects" and consider themselves separate languages (Hindi-Urdu complex).

    I believe (not with evidence, just a gut thing) that Mayan was an example of a family that considered itself a single language. The "Iroquois" speaking peoples could all understand one another, but I think that they felt that there were differences in their languages - however P-Dox has made the Iroquois Confederacy a single nation in game, so I feel that I am constrained to make Iroquois a "single" language.

    I'm not sure what to do with the Inca languages. Aymara was definitely a language presence there, so it'll probably be included. Runasimi is the endonym (self name) of Quechua (which is an exonym given by the Spaniards).
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  11. #11
    Field Marshal Trin Tragula's Avatar
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    Unfortunately I haven't really got the time to try this out right now (but as I think it's an interesting feature I'll be sure to try it out later) but I'll add some stuff about South Asia in general (some of it you may already know and have covered but it doesn't hurt to mention it) :

    Persian should be the preferred language of many muslim states and not just the ones in greater Persia. It was the court language of almost any muslim South Asian state in this era. The language and the culture had a status very similar to that of the French language in 18th century Europe. To some extent it was even used in the Hindu courts (they certainly knew how to speak it but they seem to have borrowed more from the actual persianate culture of the Indian Sultanates than the language itself, the Vijayanagara ruler had a Persian style throne room, kept up with happenings in the Timurid empire and among his title counted himself to be "Sultan of Indian Kings").

    Dakani/deccani http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deccani was a lingua franca language of the Deccani states. The real situation was quite complicated in these cosmopolitan states though with different languages used in different situations within and by the state itself. Still, the language should probably be in there.
    A situation such as the one in the deccan could really be made a lot more interesting by a mod like this though. The ruling persianate aristocracy was still so new in the area as the game starts, and far less entrenched than the one in northern india,that language did become very important. With a constant influx of persian, afghan and turkic immigrants necessary to make the sultanates function languages became one of the defining differences between the factions at court. The language used in administration and at court played a major part in the conflict between the indigenized dakanis (third or second generation persians/afghans/etc as well as the old local hindu aristocrats) and the gharbians ("westerners", first generation immigrants).
    Also for some the Dakani language might even be their native tounge. The sultanates imported lots of Ethiopian slaves, some who would rise to quite high positions (even prime minister/peshwa) and to them the mix of Persian and local languages would have been the only language in which they could communicate.

    Not sure how you'd go about covering all that (might be a bit outside the scope of this) but I thought it might be good to have the overview anyway . In general the closer to 1399 you get the more the persian and dakani languages are used. By the 17th century the sultanates had more and more switched to the local languages for many tasks of the states (but not entirely, when the Marathas formed a state in the area formerly controlled by the Sultanates they actually kept Persian and Dakani as their languages of administration initially).

    Urdu should probably also be included though it shouldn't exist at the start of the game (initially the Mughals used Old Chagatai Turkish but mostly they used Persian themselves).

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrTaxman View Post
    I do want to add Aragonese - but it is what Navarro grew into... and I am not sure yet how to model that occurrence. But yes, Aragonese will be added.
    Well, that's the problem also with castillian-spain... maybe an event to change everything but firing every X decades? Even today there are still differences between the northern spanish and the southern spanish...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trin Tragula View Post
    Unfortunately I haven't really got the time to try this out right now (but as I think it's an interesting feature I'll be sure to try it out later) but I'll add some stuff about South Asia in general (some of it you may already know and have covered but it doesn't hurt to mention it) :

    Persian should be the preferred language of many muslim states and not just the ones in greater Persia. It was the court language of almost any muslim South Asian state in this era. The language and the culture had a status very similar to that of the French language in 18th century Europe. To some extent it was even used in the Hindu courts (they certainly knew how to speak it but they seem to have borrowed more from the actual persianate culture of the Indian Sultanates than the language itself, the Vijayanagara ruler had a Persian style throne room, kept up with happenings in the Timurid empire and among his title counted himself to be "Sultan of Indian Kings").

    Dakani/deccani http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deccani was a lingua franca language of the Deccani states. The real situation was quite complicated in these cosmopolitan states though with different languages used in different situations within and by the state itself. Still, the language should probably be in there.
    A situation such as the one in the deccan could really be made a lot more interesting by a mod like this though. The ruling persianate aristocracy was still so new in the area as the game starts, and far less entrenched than the one in northern india,that language did become very important. With a constant influx of persian, afghan and turkic immigrants necessary to make the sultanates function languages became one of the defining differences between the factions at court. The language used in administration and at court played a major part in the conflict between the indigenized dakanis (third or second generation persians/afghans/etc as well as the old local hindu aristocrats) and the gharbians ("westerners", first generation immigrants).
    Also for some the Dakani language might even be their native tounge. The sultanates imported lots of Ethiopian slaves, some who would rise to quite high positions (even prime minister/peshwa) and to them the mix of Persian and local languages would have been the only language in which they could communicate.

    Not sure how you'd go about covering all that (might be a bit outside the scope of this) but I thought it might be good to have the overview anyway . In general the closer to 1399 you get the more the persian and dakani languages are used. By the 17th century the sultanates had more and more switched to the local languages for many tasks of the states (but not entirely, when the Marathas formed a state in the area formerly controlled by the Sultanates they actually kept Persian and Dakani as their languages of administration initially).

    Urdu should probably also be included though it shouldn't exist at the start of the game (initially the Mughals used Old Chagatai Turkish but mostly they used Persian themselves).
    I would certainly like to have the intricacies like this included in the mod. I think language affects politics greatly, so that kind of information is just proof

    Chagatay (or Jagatay or Chagatai or Jagatai ) is included already, and I am not going to put Urdu in as 'Urdu' but instead as 'Hindavi' (one of the former names of Urdu).

    I was doing research on the languages of India last night, and I somehow didn't even come across Deccani - so thanks for that catch.

    As I add languages, each successive language becomes more and more difficult to add (because each language must be "removed" by events, not to mention the flags associated... so that means each language has at least 3 entries in each decision and every decision must be updated with each language added - you get the idea). So I want to get the maximum extent of languages at the beginning, because I can add them in batches, and if I add them before adding their own decisions, then I have fewer existing languages to update... everyone follow me? So I want to know about all of those languages that I've missed - I'm trying to make this easier on myself!
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  14. #14
    Scio quod nesciam. MrTaxman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pirro View Post
    Well, that's the problem also with castillian-spain... maybe an event to change everything but firing every X decades? Even today there are still differences between the northern spanish and the southern spanish...
    Right now I am going to suffice with calling it Navarro-Aragonese (that only requires a localisation change). Perhaps I may add it later (or maybe I'll add it in now, when it's easier, but just continue with using navarro... I'll have to think about that)

    I will eventually need to add in complete shifts in language - Deudsch (currently in the game) became Deutsch, Middle English became Modern English, etc. So Navarro going to Aragonese should probably be included too.
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrTaxman View Post
    Right now I am going to suffice with calling it Navarro-Aragonese (that only requires a localisation change). Perhaps I may add it later (or maybe I'll add it in now, when it's easier, but just continue with using navarro... I'll have to think about that)

    I will eventually need to add in complete shifts in language - Deudsch (currently in the game) became Deutsch, Middle English became Modern English, etc. So Navarro going to Aragonese should probably be included too.
    The problem is that aragonese became more similar and more similar to spanish every time and a while. In the XVI the only difference was that spaniards did use H in harina but in the pyrinees people said farina
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    Scio quod nesciam. MrTaxman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pirro View Post
    The problem is that aragonese became more similar and more similar to spanish every time and a while. In the XVI the only difference was that spaniards did use H in harina but in the pyrinees people said farina
    That's one of the reasons I've included the language change decisions - and I will probably include events that change language too (when I've got them all in!)

    Gracias por tus commentos - es bueno encontrar a otra gente inteligente. And no, I didn't use Google Translate - hablo espan~ol (but I don't have the keyboard for it )
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrTaxman View Post
    That's one of the reasons I've included the language change decisions - and I will probably include events that change language too (when I've got them all in!)

    Gracias por tus commentos - es bueno encontrar a otra gente inteligente. And no, I didn't use Google Translate - hablo espan~ol (but I don't have the keyboard for it )
    thanks And...
    Puedes usar "ñ" y cosas así sin teclados españoles...
    You can use "ñ" and such without a spanish keyboard
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by pirro View Post
    thanks And...
    Puedes usar "ñ" y cosas así sin teclados españoles...
    You can use "ñ" and such without a spanish keyboard
    Si, pero el problema es que no se usar los acentos ni la ñ (sin copiarlos). Fui a la universidad y estudie el castellano (), pero no me enseñaron usar el teclado
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrTaxman View Post
    Si, pero el problema es que no se usar los acentos ni la ñ (sin copiarlos). Fui a la universidad y estudie el castellano (), pero no me enseñaron usar el teclado
    Every single word in spanish have an accent... you mean "tildes" don't you? Well... I use a keyboard "simulator" to use the old- anglo saxon stuff like ð or ƿ, so I think there is one in spanish...
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    Scio quod nesciam. MrTaxman's Avatar
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    Lo que se llama 'tilde' en España se llama 'acento' en las Americas, por lo menos en Argentina (vivi alli por casi dos años - ellos hablan de una forma rara)

    But all this aside a keyboard simulator would probably be a good idea.

    Back to the task at hand: now, do you have any other languages that should be included??
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