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unmerged(14719)

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Feb 13, 2003
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After a year long hiatus on Hoi 3(Semper Fi was a bad movie) and I had little faith in FTM... I finally fired up Hoi 3 to get see if anything has changed.

And Changed it has.

Playing my Nat Chinese once again (cause everything else is kinda boring..though the Japs and Jerry are fun) I was pleasantly surprised that Hoi 3 handles the Chinese Theater quite well. I have some gripes, but the overall experience was much much better.

1. Supply

Let's get this out of the way. I've had my previous gripes of Supply tantamount to hair tearing frustration. With 3.05 it's still...somewhat elusive. I had pocketed the entire Japanese army in Shanxi, divided into two pockets. One in Shanxi itself and one in Communist Chinese territory. While I could deplete the Shanxi Pocket quite easily by waiting a couple of months for them to lose their Org, the Commie China Pocket was taking much longer. Finally after a year of starving the Japanese out, I loaded up the game to find out what's going on.

For some strange reason, there was a huge supply depot in the Lifen Region, that was still supplying (to the tune of about 16k Supplies) the Encircled Japanese Army. I understand Factories provide some Supply, but 16k Supply? in Lifen? There's nothing at Lifen? Why Lifen? and 16 Supplies? Where did they come from? I hadn't been saving the game (since i really hate to reload) So i'm not too sure how big this supply depot was, how it got so big and where the supply came from. Suffice to say, all i needed to do, was to rush Lifen and the encirclement came down quick within a month or two.

Incidentally, Supply is still as wonky as ever. The further west I go...the further east my Main Supply Depot gets....>.<

However, there is one good thing. Supply into Manchuria and Korea worked...(mostly). No longer do I have to strip my Nat Chinese army of it's Artillery before marching deep into Manchuria and Korea. I could supply and sustain about 2 full armies of about 35 Divisions with some Artillery. Of course by the time I reached Korea, I had to send one Army home due to the narrow terrain and Supply issues.

2. Shanxi

Shanxi, unfortunately falls too fast. Of course it's not like Vanilla on launch month, where you have Shanxi annexing Manchuria. But Shanxi should have put up at least a decent fight. In my game, Shanxi fell within a month.

3. Commie China.

Surprisingly, Commie China fell within 6 months. This is interesting, since it's usually quite hard to dislodge troops in Fortified mountains with flowing rivers. Maybe something was changed, but I gave it a shot (something I usually seldom do) and to my surprise I managed to cross the river with heavy losses, something that was rarely achievable in Semper Fi and Vanilla.

4. AI

Which brings me to another point, there seems to be a change in the AI. The AI rarely stands and fights now which is both a good thing and a bad thing. I find that all I need to do is poke a province with my 5 stack Corps and the AI will retreat relatively fast. The AI will usually only stand it's ground in a River Crossing area. (appears to anyways). This is good as that it is logical, retreat in the face of superior force. But this constant retreating, makes little sense if you do now protect important points, like (supply depots). Since Supply is so damn important in 3/4 Infra terrain, at least have the AI stand and fight in important areas.

Again I'm not sure why my units are superior. My tech is either the same or 1 step behind the Japanese. I have fewer units than the Japanese and my only ally were the Commie Chinese, Xibei and Shanxi (2 of which collapsed so fast that they provided no support in the first place). So why the constant retreating?

5. Technology and Build Order of Japan

This is quite a refreshing change, prior to my pockets, I found the Japanese AI building planes and ships, something even the Jap AI never did well in Semper Fi.

However, even with the Japanese disasters in Northern China, Central China, Manchuria and finally in Korea. (I loaded up the Jap Ai with each instance) I find that the Jap AI...kinda goes to sleep. It still builds Planes and Ships...and some Infantry brigades. Now I know there are limitations to AI, but wouldn't it be so hard to implement a sub routine or event that forces the AI to at least do 'something' after multiple setbacks? Because it's strange to see the AI not rebuilding their army and the Japanese Homeland is mostly empty (less than 30 brigades).

All this by 1939...2 years prior to pearl and from what I know from reading the forums...Japan is going to DOW the US...in '41 regardless of the Chinese outcome.

6. Reunification of China

The loss of the Lower Neutrality button is interesting. (i've only played a little bit of FTM previously so maybe this was there before) I can't Reunify China anytime soon. My spies die faster than I can build them. Running an Increase Threat with 10 Spies in Yunnan I lose a spy about every other week/month. I lose most of my spies within 6 months. Even when I've run a Counterespionage to clear out their Spies, I'm still losing all my Chinese 007s at an unacceptable rate.

Which brings me to the point, how do you reunify China? I can't Dow Yunnan, Guangxi Clique, Sinkiang. My Neutrality is in the 40s. I have 4 Points of Leadership building Spies and I can't replace my losses fast enough.

Isn't there an Event to lower neutrality provided?

7. In conclusion.

I like this 3.05 FTM. It's a refreshing change. The Nat Chinese Theater is at least decently playable now, and the Japanese AI is somewhat Logical...up until it gets its ass handed to it.

I've also noticed Nat China did not have claims on Manchuria and I could not annex Manchuria via an annex button. In replacement I noticed a War goals button which allowed me to choose between conquest and acquiring the territory of some russian sounding place...which i can't find on the map.

I do hope Hoi 3 gets another Expatchsion. At least some things do get fixed..2 years? down the road.
 
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@Holistic_Cookie: Welcome back!

In FTM you lower your neutrality by the new "prepare for war" function. Any nation with less than 30-effective IC gets this choice. As Nat Chi you need to use ministers, bad laws and dissent by not putting IC into consumer goods. The dissent will drive your effective IC down, and by raising threat of Mongolia (eggman discovered that this has the greatest effect), you will be able to begin to unify China before Japan attacks. TheBromgrev also recommends taking out Shanxi first, thus preventing the Marco Polo decision for Japan. At that point Japan won't DOW you.

BTW: 3.06 Beta just came out two days ago. You will really like the new map (CMP: Community Map Project, found on the mod forum). The Beta is on the technical support forum.
 
@Holistic_Cookie: Welcome back!

In FTM you lower your neutrality by the new "prepare for war" function. Any nation with less than 30-effective IC gets this choice. As Nat Chi you need to use ministers, bad laws and dissent by not putting IC into consumer goods. The dissent will drive your effective IC down, and by raising threat of Mongolia (eggman discovered that this has the greatest effect), you will be able to begin to unify China before Japan attacks. TheBromgrev also recommends taking out Shanxi first, thus preventing the Marco Polo decision for Japan. At that point Japan won't DOW you.

BTW: 3.06 Beta just came out two days ago. You will really like the new map (CMP: Community Map Project, found on the mod forum). The Beta is on the technical support forum.

Mongolia? :eek:
 
Yes! I haven't checked it myself, but eggman provides reliable info and derived it from the game files.

yes, i've just read it on the forums...

So to Unify China and Fight Japanese Colonial Aggression, I have to send James Wong, 008 to Mongolia?


...That Tux is gonna shrink in the desert...
 
The supply in the pocket was captured when shanxi fell and never made it to hamhung before you locked off the lines. I have no problem playing china and japan and I'm not cheating to get around supply problems. I think you should download the 3.06 beta patch, the tooltips in supply mode are alot more helpful for those who still can't figure out the puzzle. I'm not gonna go into detail what can be done to improve your game because 90% of these random logistic hate threads tend to be full of people who dont really want to learn and really just want to flame the fact they can't solve the puzzle. I invade china with 75 divisions of infantry with artillery attached on very hard and have no supply problems in 3.05 and 3.06.
 
The supply in the pocket was captured when shanxi fell and never made it to hamhung before you locked off the lines. I have no problem playing china and japan and I'm not cheating to get around supply problems. I think you should download the 3.06 beta patch, the tooltips in supply mode are alot more helpful for those who still can't figure out the puzzle. I'm not gonna go into detail what can be done to improve your game because 90% of these random logistic hate threads tend to be full of people who dont really want to learn and really just want to flame the fact they can't solve the puzzle. I invade china with 75 divisions of infantry with artillery attached on very hard and have no supply problems in 3.05 and 3.06.

After 2 expatchsions and numerous patches, one would expect at least some improvements to the supply, which I believe 3.05 and beyond is improving on.

It's not random people who are not bothering to learn the Supply mechanics, the supply mechanics really don't make sense. In Semper Fi, the Further west you went into India as Japan, the further east your supply depot got. Does that make any sense? Of course not. I understand why the Supply Depot shifted, still doesn't mean it should. For example, by the time you've crossed Burma, your Supply Depot Shifts from Hainan back to Hamhung. Logically, you'd want to put your supply depot as forward as possible yes? In which case, the most logical location should be Singapore geographically with it's high level port. (anyways, I don't want to devolve this into another supply discussion)

3.05 and FTM does quite a bit to improve the Supply Interface which was what was lacking in the first place.
 
After 2 expatchsions and numerous patches, one would expect at least some improvements to the supply, which I believe 3.05 and beyond is improving on.

It's not random people who are not bothering to learn the Supply mechanics, the supply mechanics really don't make sense. In Semper Fi, the Further west you went into India as Japan, the further east your supply depot got. Does that make any sense? Of course not. I understand why the Supply Depot shifted, still doesn't mean it should. For example, by the time you've crossed Burma, your Supply Depot Shifts from Hainan back to Hamhung. Logically, you'd want to put your supply depot as forward as possible yes? In which case, the most logical location should be Singapore geographically with it's high level port. (anyways, I don't want to devolve this into another supply discussion)

3.05 and FTM does quite a bit to improve the Supply Interface which was what was lacking in the first place.

Sigh...stockpiles are not the actual source of supply, they are the destination province for all demand lines. Units do not directly order supplies, they modify a provinces required daily supply. The province will draw a line towards the supply depot pretty much the same way a unit would Strat Red to it. Provinces with Blue supply send all excess supply tax free to the same stockpile location as if it were a unit strat redeploying(I.E. most infra rich province path). You are having issues in india because of a map flaw. 3.06 fixes the flaw, I don't have a 3.05 install running atm but if you look to the right of calcutta there is a rather long shaped province on the inlet of the indian ocean there, and as japanese supply flows the logistics system refuses to utilize more provinces to feed the army in india due to there being a 3+ additional supply tax province addition. There should be supply problems when moving an army across asia, when hasn't there been one in the history of the world? If the game works for many people, and every patch has not solved your problem...could it not be possible that maybe its you that have the problem and no amount of patches are going to fix a severe inability to adapt to other peoples advice?

3.05 screwed up the supply interface tooltips...3.06 fixes them. Most supply mapmode tooltips are misleading aswell as pointed out by my previous paragraph...stockpiles are not sources of supply for most situations.
 
yes, i've just read it on the forums...

So to Unify China and Fight Japanese Colonial Aggression, I have to send James Wong, 008 to Mongolia?


...That Tux is gonna shrink in the desert...

Keep in mind, I collected data for 3.05. I don't know how much the 3.06 patch changes the situation, but from what I read in Podcat's posts, threat generation doesn't seem to have changed much, they've only tweaked the diplomacy formulas.