+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 49

Thread: AT division

  1. #1
    Second Lieutenant Gatemaster's Avatar
    Europa Universalis 3Europa Universalis: ChroniclesHearts of Iron IIIMajesty 2

    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Copenhagen, Denmark
    Posts
    111

    AT division

    Hi,
    Quick question.

    will I be able to do battle with a division with only AT brigades?
    Noticed they have 0 frontage, so do that mean that a division with only AT cannot attack (or defend)?

    Thanks in advance.

  2. #2
    Lt. General Thanik's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Oppeln
    Posts
    1,469
    Unit with 0 frontage(all support brigades,or HQ) can't join battles,both in defend and attack.
    But if you add exchange 1 AT with 1 INF(of what you want) they can.
    Simple English User

  3. #3
    Hellgate to the Netherworld Portal's Avatar
    Crusader Kings IIFor the MotherlandHearts of Iron IIISemper Fi500k club
    Europa Universalis IV

    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    A Land Down Under
    Posts
    1,238
    Yes. A division of AT would suck even if it could fight. I reccomend MOT and TD or MECH and TD. TD is the best unit in the game. Pity it's a support brigade.

  4. #4
    Field Marshal CplKatie's Avatar
    Crusader Kings IIHearts of Iron IIISemper Fi500k club

    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Tokyo
    Posts
    3,839
    I prefer my armor divisions to be Larm and Mec/mot cause its simpler techs and since the tanks are so expensive with beta patch it really does make all the difference if your not Germany/USA.

  5. #5
    de Vauban Saint-Exupéry's Avatar
    HoI AnthologyArsenal of DemocracyHearts of Iron 2: ArmageddonDarkest HourFor the Motherland
    Hearts of Iron IIIHOI3: Their Finest HourIron CrossSemper Fi

    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Villers-Bocage
    Posts
    1,543
    Later in my game, after 1941,as Germany, I build dosen or so 2x Inf+ 1xAT+ 1xRocket artillery(Nebelwerfer) divisions.

    This is only way I use AT ever in game, is good against Mechanised Allies later on, and from immersion perspective lets say its something like historical"grenadier"divison.
    “A life spent making mistakes is not only more honorable, but more useful than a life spent doing nothing.” ― George Bernard Shaw

  6. #6
    10+ Years on the Forum Demi Moderator SAS's Avatar
    93 games registered

    93

    200k clubHoI AnthologyHearts of Iron 2: ArmageddonCrusader Kings IIDeus Vult
    DiplomacyEast India Company CollectionFor the MotherlandGalactic AssaultGettysburg
    Hearts of Iron IIIHearts of Iron III CollectionHOI3: Their Finest HourIron CrossThe Kings Crusade
    Lost Empire - ImmortalsMarch of the EaglesVictoria: RevolutionsSemper FiSengoku
    Sword of the Stars IIVictoria 2Victoria II: A House DividedVictoria II: Heart of DarknessRome: Vae Victis
    Hearts of Iron: The Card GamePride of NationsRise of PrussiaCK2: Holy KnightEU Rome Collectors Edition
    EU3 Collectors EditionKnights of Pen and Paper +1 Edition500k clubEuropa Universalis IV: Pre-orderTeleglitch: Die More Edition
    EUIV: Call to arms eventMagicka: Wizard Wars Founder WizardWarlock 2: The ExiledEUIV: Wealth of NationsEUIV: Conquest of Paradise
    EUIV: Res PublicaAncient SpaceCrusader Kings II: Legacy of RomeCrusader Kings II: Sword of IslamCrusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
    Crusader Kings II: The RepublicCrusader Kings II: The Old GodsCrusader Kings II: Sons of AbrahamCrusader Kings II: Rajas of IndiaCrusader Kings II: Charlemagne

    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Icon Collecting
    Posts
    6,436
    Blog Entries
    1
    You must remember that they are called support brigades for a reason. You can build them, but you will lose the war pretty quick once Barbarossa starts.
    - March of the Eagles mod: The Gods

    - When I speak in Cyan its as a Demi-Moderator. Please review the following links: FAQ / Forum Rules / General Usage

  7. #7
    Covert Mastermind Demi Moderator Secret Master's Avatar
    200k clubAchtung PanzerCrusader Kings IICommander: Conquest of the AmericasDeus Vult
    Europa Universalis 3Divine WindFor the MotherlandHearts of Iron IIIHearts of Iron III Collection
    Heir to the ThroneEuropa Universalis III: In NomineThe Kings CrusadeMagickaMarch of the Eagles
    EU3 Napoleon's AmbitionVictoria: RevolutionsEuropa Universalis: RomeSemper FiSengoku
    Ship Simulator ExtremesSword of the Stars IIVictoria 2Victoria II: A House DividedVictoria II: Heart of Darkness
    Rome: Vae VictisMount & Blade: WarbandWarlock: Master of the ArcaneMount & Blade: With Fire and SwordPride of Nations
    CK2: Holy Knight500k clubEuropa Universalis IV

    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    It's a secret, duh...
    Posts
    16,285
    I'm not a big fan of AT brigades for Germany. While the Soviets have some armor (and if you let them get away with it, they will get HARM into the mix at some point), and the Allies can have some nice armored units, I find that I prefer sending either my own motorized/mechanized forces against armor, or my own tanks.

    Of course, I also like to use CAS as highly mobile tank busters thanks to their insane HA. Even just a few can wreak havoc on large armored formations in ways that AT just can't compete with.
    All Hail Him,

    The Secret Master

    Note: If I write a post in this hideous color, I am speaking as a Demi-Moderator. Paying attention is strongly advised.

  8. #8
    Convicted Drive-by Poster Pro_Consul's Avatar
    EU3 CompleteFor the MotherlandHearts of Iron IIIHOI3: Their Finest HourVictoria: Revolutions
    Semper FiSword of the StarsMount & Blade: With Fire and SwordPride of Nations500k club

    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    5,054
    I'm also not a fan of AT brigades. Their attack penalty makes them really only useful in standing and defending against enemy attacks. And I hate standing and waiting for enemies to attack me. On the attack an AT brigade's relatively large attack penalty gets averaged across the entire division, dragging the whole formation down like a bad attitude. I prefer to just not build the things and use air forces (CAS) and/or mobile response forces like LARM or MOT with TD support to deal with any serious armor threat from my enemy.
    An Englishman thinks a hundred miles is a long way. An American thinks a hundred years is a long time. I am beginning to think a hundred dollars is a lot of money. Two of these facts are interesting. All of them are revealing. But only one of them is truly pathetic.

    Member of the Ahistoric Association

  9. #9
    Field Marshal Beagá's Avatar
    Arsenal of DemocracyCrusader Kings IIDarkest HourEU3 CompleteFor The Glory
    For the MotherlandHearts of Iron IIIHOI3: Their Finest HourHeir to the ThroneVictoria 2
    Victoria II: A House DividedVictoria II: Heart of DarknessCK2: Holy Knight500k clubEuropa Universalis IV: Pre-order

    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Brazil
    Posts
    8,486
    As the soviets in 1941 you will be attacked a lot, so "don´t get AT brigades because they are slow and you should be attacking" is not a good advice. Better to have 5 AT brigades spread out than 1 elite TD brigade that won´t be everywhere at once.

  10. #10
    Covert Mastermind Demi Moderator Secret Master's Avatar
    200k clubAchtung PanzerCrusader Kings IICommander: Conquest of the AmericasDeus Vult
    Europa Universalis 3Divine WindFor the MotherlandHearts of Iron IIIHearts of Iron III Collection
    Heir to the ThroneEuropa Universalis III: In NomineThe Kings CrusadeMagickaMarch of the Eagles
    EU3 Napoleon's AmbitionVictoria: RevolutionsEuropa Universalis: RomeSemper FiSengoku
    Ship Simulator ExtremesSword of the Stars IIVictoria 2Victoria II: A House DividedVictoria II: Heart of Darkness
    Rome: Vae VictisMount & Blade: WarbandWarlock: Master of the ArcaneMount & Blade: With Fire and SwordPride of Nations
    CK2: Holy Knight500k clubEuropa Universalis IV

    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    It's a secret, duh...
    Posts
    16,285
    Depending on how you build, AT for the Soviets isn't that great, either. If you prioritize aircraft or armor, you should be able to reach parity with the Germans by 1941. That's not the same thing as saying you can trounce them, but I can optimize my foot divisions with more SA to beat German infantry while using armor or planes to neutralize German armor. \

    German tanks can't be everywhere at once, either.
    All Hail Him,

    The Secret Master

    Note: If I write a post in this hideous color, I am speaking as a Demi-Moderator. Paying attention is strongly advised.

  11. #11
    I generally build some AT for flavor purposes. Not too much, and usually when I'm going to try for a rather static front somewhere. Generally combined with land forts + ENG. The German front towards France, for example, assuming I plan to go the ahistorical route and stomp on the Soviets first. Or the France/Italy border when trying out either nation.

  12. #12
    First Lieutenant Biggus Dickus's Avatar
    For the MotherlandHearts of Iron IIIHOI3: Their Finest HourRome GoldSemper Fi
    Rome: Vae Victis

    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    London, Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    271
    I`ve found a division 2inf, 2art, 1at to be effective especially on defense.

  13. #13
    Field Marshal Beagá's Avatar
    Arsenal of DemocracyCrusader Kings IIDarkest HourEU3 CompleteFor The Glory
    For the MotherlandHearts of Iron IIIHOI3: Their Finest HourHeir to the ThroneVictoria 2
    Victoria II: A House DividedVictoria II: Heart of DarknessCK2: Holy Knight500k clubEuropa Universalis IV: Pre-order

    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Brazil
    Posts
    8,486
    Well for that price it ought to be good.

  14. #14
    Close the worLd,.txEn eht nepO GAGA Extrem's Avatar
    200k clubAchtung PanzerA Game of DwarvesArsenal of DemocracyHearts of Iron 2: Armageddon
    Cities in MotionCrusader Kings IIDarkest HourEast India Company CollectionElven Legacy Collection
    EU3 CompleteDivine WindFor the MotherlandHearts of Iron IIIHeir to the Throne
    King Arthur IILeviathan: WarshipsMagickaMajesty 2EU3 Napoleon's Ambition
    Rome GoldSemper FiSupreme Ruler 2020 GoldSupreme Ruler 2020Victoria 2
    Victoria II: A House DividedVictoria II: Heart of DarknessMount & Blade: WarbandV2 BetaCK2: Holy Knight
    EU3 Collectors EditionKnights of Pen and Paper +1 Edition500k clubEuropa Universalis IV: Pre-order

    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    7,063
    (1) As said above: pure AT divisions cannot fight.

    (2) I like AT, it is really nice if used well. The only problem: TD is vastly more powerful and preferable in almost any way. Still, some nations can use them. FRA and SOV are good choises, depending on the JAP playstyle CHI can use a few as well.
    A few suggested builds:

    INF-HQ-AT-AT -> use your corps HQ as a mobile anti tank reserve.
    INF-INF-AT-AT -> use a corps of these as an army or army corps reserve and bring them up where the enemy tanks show themselve. Can be a valuable addition for the SOV to delay or even defeat the german spearheads.
    INF-INF-AT-ENG -> very powerful defence against armored spearheads. Excellent for the second line to contain an armored breakthrough. Vastly more powerful if in difficult terrain behind a river.

  15. #15
    Convicted Drive-by Poster Pro_Consul's Avatar
    EU3 CompleteFor the MotherlandHearts of Iron IIIHOI3: Their Finest HourVictoria: Revolutions
    Semper FiSword of the StarsMount & Blade: With Fire and SwordPride of Nations500k club

    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    5,054
    Quote Originally Posted by GAGA Extrem View Post
    INF-HQ-AT-AT -> use your corps HQ as a mobile anti tank reserve.
    INF-INF-AT-AT -> use a corps of these as an army or army corps reserve and bring them up where the enemy tanks show themselve. Can be a valuable addition for the SOV to delay or even defeat the german spearheads.
    Not really seeing these two as described. Using a non-mobile unit as a mobile anti tank reserve just seems counter intuitive to me. I totally get using AT units as the basis for static defenders, standing in place to deny enemy tanks an easy route through a particular province. But trying to use AT units to meet a force of enemy armor on the move seems like throwing away their bonus without getting anything in return. If a mobile reserve is called for, I would think a mobile unit like a TD or LARM would be more appropriate.
    An Englishman thinks a hundred miles is a long way. An American thinks a hundred years is a long time. I am beginning to think a hundred dollars is a lot of money. Two of these facts are interesting. All of them are revealing. But only one of them is truly pathetic.

    Member of the Ahistoric Association

  16. #16
    Field Marshal JASGripen's Avatar
    200k clubAchtung PanzerHearts of Iron 2: ArmageddonFor the MotherlandHearts of Iron III
    Semper FiRome: Vae Victis

    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    The Cockpit
    Posts
    4,561
    I have used TD and MOT compositons for divisions and they are not really up to the task against armoured divisions. This is fine, but one should really think about how to use the TD divisions. They are often out of combat as the MOT is out of org while the TD element still got gas left (but as a support brigade they do not fight without the MOT).
    Montgomery to Colonial secretary Oliver Lyttelton 23 December 1951:

    “Dear Lyttelton, Malaya
    We must have a plan. Secondly we must have a man.
    When we have a plan and a man, we shall succeed: otherwise not.
    Yours sincerely , Montgomery (F.M.)”

    Lyttelton in his memoirs: “I may, perhaps without undue conceit, say that this had occurred to me”.

    ____________________________________
    We are only in it for the Money. A 100% Dove British AAR HoI2 (*Experiment Finished*)

  17. #17
    Field Marshal Beagá's Avatar
    Arsenal of DemocracyCrusader Kings IIDarkest HourEU3 CompleteFor The Glory
    For the MotherlandHearts of Iron IIIHOI3: Their Finest HourHeir to the ThroneVictoria 2
    Victoria II: A House DividedVictoria II: Heart of DarknessCK2: Holy Knight500k clubEuropa Universalis IV: Pre-order

    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Brazil
    Posts
    8,486
    I use 2xARM 1xMOT 1xTD if possible. Best all-around division until mechanized IMO, pretty expensive however.

  18. #18
    Close the worLd,.txEn eht nepO GAGA Extrem's Avatar
    200k clubAchtung PanzerA Game of DwarvesArsenal of DemocracyHearts of Iron 2: Armageddon
    Cities in MotionCrusader Kings IIDarkest HourEast India Company CollectionElven Legacy Collection
    EU3 CompleteDivine WindFor the MotherlandHearts of Iron IIIHeir to the Throne
    King Arthur IILeviathan: WarshipsMagickaMajesty 2EU3 Napoleon's Ambition
    Rome GoldSemper FiSupreme Ruler 2020 GoldSupreme Ruler 2020Victoria 2
    Victoria II: A House DividedVictoria II: Heart of DarknessMount & Blade: WarbandV2 BetaCK2: Holy Knight
    EU3 Collectors EditionKnights of Pen and Paper +1 Edition500k clubEuropa Universalis IV: Pre-order

    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    7,063
    Quote Originally Posted by Pro_Consul View Post
    Not really seeing these two as described. Using a non-mobile unit as a mobile anti tank reserve just seems counter intuitive to me. I totally get using AT units as the basis for static defenders, standing in place to deny enemy tanks an easy route through a particular province. But trying to use AT units to meet a force of enemy armor on the move seems like throwing away their bonus without getting anything in return. If a mobile reserve is called for, I would think a mobile unit like a TD or LARM would be more appropriate.
    Well, it depends. Certainly regular AT is not meant to intercept tanks directly via move commands, but you can still use strat redeploy to mass them in front of an enemy tank advance. Granted, LARM/TD would be faster - but it is also much more costly. And while you can afford the luxury of TD brigades in a SP, I really don't have the IC and time to build them in a MP enviroment...
    There I usually use a massive defence in depth strategy with 3 to 4 layers of defending units. AT reserves are usually in the 3rd or 4th row, ready to move into combat once the tanks managed to pierce the second or third line.

    I also use a few AT reserves in my army - basicially one full corps with INF/INF/AT/AT assets for each army corps, ready at the rear to counter a tank spearhead. AT might be meant for defence, but if massed it can still give tanks a hard time, esp. when flanking the enemy. And since AT is VERY cheap, building a 2-3 AT fully equipped corps units won't kill you as a large nation.

    I remember a game where a german player massed his armor on the northern front (thank you, radar intel!) - only to run into my AT wall and get his head bashed by a counter attack from 2 AT corps while advancing on my rearward defence. Hehe... Good times.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Pro_Consul View Post
    On the attack an AT brigade's relatively large attack penalty gets averaged across the entire division, dragging the whole formation down like a bad attitude.
    Please pardon my ignorance here but, is this referring to the attack penalties per terrain type as shown in the Wiki reference for Terrain Modifiers? Or, is there some other penalty I'm obviously unaware of? If the former, would it still not be better to attack an armored unit with AT than Infantry due to the AT's higher Hard Attack value?

    P.S. I'm playing SF 2.04f
    Stan Collins

  20. #20
    Covert Mastermind Demi Moderator Secret Master's Avatar
    200k clubAchtung PanzerCrusader Kings IICommander: Conquest of the AmericasDeus Vult
    Europa Universalis 3Divine WindFor the MotherlandHearts of Iron IIIHearts of Iron III Collection
    Heir to the ThroneEuropa Universalis III: In NomineThe Kings CrusadeMagickaMarch of the Eagles
    EU3 Napoleon's AmbitionVictoria: RevolutionsEuropa Universalis: RomeSemper FiSengoku
    Ship Simulator ExtremesSword of the Stars IIVictoria 2Victoria II: A House DividedVictoria II: Heart of Darkness
    Rome: Vae VictisMount & Blade: WarbandWarlock: Master of the ArcaneMount & Blade: With Fire and SwordPride of Nations
    CK2: Holy Knight500k clubEuropa Universalis IV

    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    It's a secret, duh...
    Posts
    16,285
    Quote Originally Posted by StanCollins View Post
    Please pardon my ignorance here but, is this referring to the attack penalties per terrain type as shown in the Wiki reference for Terrain Modifiers? Or, is there some other penalty I'm obviously unaware of? If the former, would it still not be better to attack an armored unit with AT than Infantry due to the AT's higher Hard Attack value?

    P.S. I'm playing SF 2.04f
    He is referring to the terrain penalties you can see listed in the wiki (although it doesn't seem that the wiki gives the penalties AT has attacking through plains). So yes, attacking a hard unit with AT is still better than attacking a soft unit. But it also means that the penalty hurts the entire division, so attaching AT to a division drags down its overall values when attacking and not just the AT brigade's attack values. INF has generally better values at attacking into all kinds of terrain, and you could substitute the AT for something else, so the decision to use AT in significant numbers, and HOW to use AT in significant numbers, is a question you have to think long and hard about. Just spamming AT brigades and attaching them to all INF divisions may not be the best use of IC or time.
    All Hail Him,

    The Secret Master

    Note: If I write a post in this hideous color, I am speaking as a Demi-Moderator. Paying attention is strongly advised.

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts