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Saxon england impossible to change?

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neondt said:
I'd like a Scandinavian-Saxon melting pot culture/event too, considering that England sometimes ends up in Norwegian or (rarely) Danish hands.
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Honestly, that would just be Anglo-Saxon -- it already had a great deal of Nordic influence as the names and naming conventions (which should actually be identical to Norwegian but aren't in vanilla) suggest. There'd be little point in having a new and unique culture mixing Saxon and Norse.
 
Jck2 said:
I've said it before but this is a horrible way to go about doing this. There are islands that are simply impossible to change the culture of unless you become muslim. Forcing the playing to switch their religion simply to change the culture is bad game design. This needs to be reworked.
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Actually you don't have to switch your religion. Find a zealous lady in Christendom, invite her to your realm, then find a non-landed muslim courtier to your liking and propose a marriage. Once the muslim ruler accepted, invite the wife back to your court. Her husband will tag along and you can give him a county somewhere in the islands, and let him slowly convert its denizens for you. Once his work is done, simply revoke his title and plant your highest stewardship noble in his place, and voila. A seed for your cultural expansion.
 
Sleight of Hand said:
Honestly, that would just be Anglo-Saxon -- it already had a great deal of Nordic influence as the names and naming conventions (which should actually be identical to Norwegian but aren't in vanilla) suggest. There'd be little point in having a new and unique culture mixing Saxon and Norse.
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I see your point, but the game doesn't really model the similarities between Anglo-Saxon and Scandinavian cultures, having them in a totally seperate culture group causing "foreigner" opinion penalties. Maybe an event that changed Saxon to the Scandinavian culture group instead of creating a new culture would be better.
 
neondt said:
I see your point, but the game doesn't really model the similarities between Anglo-Saxon and Scandinavian cultures, having them in a totally seperate culture group causing "foreigner" opinion penalties. Maybe an event that changed Saxon to the Scandinavian culture group instead of creating a new culture would be better.
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I used to have Saxon in the North Germanic group -- I only moved it back to help balance the fact that the Saxons and Vikings really shouldn't get on that well, despite being very similar culturally.
 
neondt said:
I see your point, but the game doesn't really model the similarities between Anglo-Saxon and Scandinavian cultures, having them in a totally seperate culture group causing "foreigner" opinion penalties. Maybe an event that changed Saxon to the Scandinavian culture group instead of creating a new culture would be better.
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Could just put Saxon in the North Germanic group to begin with, if you want them to be more friendly.
 
Sleight of Hand said:
I used to have Saxon in the North Germanic group -- I only moved it back to help balance the fact that the Saxons and Vikings really shouldn't get on that well, despite being very similar culturally.
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Well quite. The Anglo-Saxon literature depicting "Vikings" portrays them as heathen savages despite their shared cultural heritage. So yeah. A new Saxon-Norse culture would be redundant and simply moving Saxon to the Scandinavian group fails to represent hostile attitudes. I suppose either a "new" Saxon-Scandinavian culture with identical localisation (only difference being the culture group), or an event changes the culture group (not sure it's possible to mess with defined cultures during gameplay) could more accurately represent a potential reconciliation of Saxon and Scandinavian culture.
 
neondt said:
Well quite. The Anglo-Saxon literature depicting "Vikings" portrays them as heathen savages despite their shared cultural heritage. So yeah. A new Saxon-Norse culture would be redundant and simply moving Saxon to the Scandinavian group fails to represent hostile attitudes. I suppose either a "new" Saxon-Scandinavian culture with identical localisation (only difference being the culture group), or an event changes the culture group (not sure it's possible to mess with defined cultures during gameplay) could more accurately represent a potential reconciliation of Saxon and Scandinavian culture.
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Yeah. I mentioned a similar train of thought here if you're interested.

At least the Saxons aren't in the Central Germanic group I suppose. :p
 
The culture change events drive me a bit crazy. As the Duke of Flanders, I took over Cyranacea and wanted desperately to turn it Dutch. I purposefully left my court chaplain OUT of the picture, so that I would have a better chance of changing culture via the religious event.... Nope, all 5 of those counties changed to Catholic without any help from me, so now I'll have to conquer more territory to try to get one of those counties to turn Dutch... Grrrr....
 
What surprised me was that you don't even need to place your court chaplain in a province (using his inquisition ability) in order to convert it -- it'll just happen automatically over time via event, and there doesn't even appear to be that much of a time difference anyway. I don't think provinces should convert at all unless you actively try to convert them.
 
Sleight of Hand said:
What surprised me was that you don't even need to place your court chaplain in a province (using his inquisition ability) in order to convert it -- it'll just happen automatically over time via event, and there doesn't even appear to be that much of a time difference anyway. I don't think provinces should convert at all unless you actively try to convert them.
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I was under the impression that the reason they convert without your input is that your vassal's use their chaplains to attempt the conversion. I don't know if personally holding EVERY holding in a county would stop religious conversion or not.
 
blackfire83 said:
I was under the impression that the reason they convert without your input is that your vassal's use their chaplains to attempt the conversion. I don't know if personally holding EVERY holding in a county would stop religious conversion or not.
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I have no idea -- you may well be correct but because you can't see anyone else's little sprites on the map it's hard to tell. I just thought it was random to be honest.
 
blackfire83 said:
I was under the impression that the reason they convert without your input is that your vassal's use their chaplains to attempt the conversion. I don't know if personally holding EVERY holding in a county would stop religious conversion or not.
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From my experience, you are correct. After taking huge portions of the Holy Land, my personal holdings ended up converting culture before religion since my chaplain had super bad luck, while my vassals all converted religion relatively quickly since their chaplains and vassals chaplains were all working at the same time
 
Sleight of Hand said:
At least the Saxons aren't in the Central Germanic group I suppose. :p
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Should be really. The saxons are close to frisians but the flemish are closer to franconians then they are to frisians. Dividing Germans and Saxons/dutch like that makes no sense. North and west germanic are real groups but center is just made up (center of what? having northern and western neighbours doesn't make you center, it makes you the corner, should be 'corner germanic' if they're just going to make groups up).

I was thinking of doing a mod that gets rid of north/west/central germanic and just has one germanic group with a single scandanavian culture, a saxon culture and a german culture. I'd put in a high/low german split too but that seems unfair if I'm putting icelanders and danes together.
 
Closet Skeleton said:
Should be really. The saxons are close to frisians but the flemish are closer to franconians then they are to frisians. Dividing Germans and Saxons/dutch like that makes no sense. North and west germanic are real groups but center is just made up (center of what? having northern and western neighbours doesn't make you center, it makes you the corner, should be 'corner germanic' if they're just going to make groups up).
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No it definitely makes more sense having them split than combined. German and Dutch should be in the same group, and I think Paradox have just thrown Dutch in with Saxon on the basis that Saxon and Frisian were similar even though Frisian is not actually represented as a culture in vanilla CK II. During much of this period the cultural/linguistic differences between the Germans and Dutch were pretty negligible, and many of the rulers of the territories in the Netherlands were from German dynasties. If Frisian was a separate culture I would agree to adding it to the West Germanic group, but it's not.

There is certainly a valid argument for merging the three Nordic cultures into a single Scandinavian one, but I suppose by doing so you would lose a bit of flavor and the differences between the three would become apparent in time. But I guess that's another argument though.

I don't agree with Saxon and German being in the same group though -- they're not particularly similar and people just take the 'it's a Germanic language' argument too far. Furthermore, either culture would consider someone of the other ruling over them a cultural alien, which is basically what matters in game terms.
 
Dutch just shouldn't exist in game. It just isn't a relevant concept to the time period. A low countries german that extends into westphalia along with seperate german cultures for other regions? That would make sense. A Slovenia to Cologne unified german that suddenly becomes dutch at loon and is a bad idea to take because you lose squire lists for nothing in return and can just quickly assmilate the land to german anyway? That's both rediculous and pointless.

If I re-unite lotharingia then a franconian from the rheinland isn't going to hate his low countries neighbours in the same kingdom but love some bavarian from slovenia.

Much of Holland is still underwater. The dutch golden age won't bloom for 200 years after the date most players never reach. The very events that created the dutch nation are destroyed the moment you press play.

If we're allowed a united french-italian group we can have a united german-saxon-frisian group.
 
Norwegian, Swedish and danish didn't exist either. They all spoke about the same language and had the same writing style. Sure there were probably dialects. But they were the same culture and language.
 
It'd be cool if Scandinavia began as "Old Norse", and diverged into seperate cultures by events over time.
 
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