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Thread: Summons- do you cast them?

  1. #21
    I like casting summons. The serpents make great air cavalry. They can move across mountains and they can move from sea to shore and vise versa very easily. Furthermore, they have a ranged attack and are immune to melee attacks because they fly. They are great for doing recon and for mopping up and for bringing firepower to an area in a hurry, just like modern army air cavalry.

    Imps make good fodder and as some one else pointed out they are great for taking over lairs. They are also kind of like paratroopers because you can summon them behind enemy lines.

  2. #22
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    I also like summons. They make great emergency reinforcements, and the later summons are extremely powerful. I do think that you should be able to give perks to units for mana as an alternative to gold. This would allow you to sink excess mana.

  3. #23
    Summons can get you reliable sources of Elemental damage before you can get it from the troops you can build. Elemental damage is much more effective than melee or missile damage against the fire elementals that guard holy sites. Summons are especially important for the Undead, who don't have any units that deal elemental damage until you get to the Dracolich.

  4. #24
    Fire Elementals are huge if you're Undead and don't have a human city to turn out magisters or something. Depending on luck and research, you can go through a portal many turns earlier than you'd otherwise manage.

  5. #25
    I love summons. Need instant defense in a city? No problem! Need to clear a monster den? No problem! Want a cheap scout? No problem!

    Regarding increasing casting time...what if instead of a maximum cast per turn, what if each additional spell cast per turn was more expensive? Maybe add, say, 50% of the cost of spells previously cast that round to any additional spells cast, with maybe some limit based on the cost of whatever you're casting so you don't end up with something like a 100 mana firebolt because you cast thunderstorm earlier in the round. Maybe a cap of something like +100% of the original cost of the spell per spell cast. So if you cast some ludicrous 1000 mana spell(just bear with me here), then you cast a 20 mana spell several times, it'd cost 40 mana, then 60, then 80, and so on. It'd probably still be more economical to cast the cheaper spells first, but that's what you get for not planning ahead .

    Anyway, the idea would be that it'd be better to plan ahead, but a player could theoretically blow their entire mana stash in a single turn, but less efficiently than using it in a more measured fashion.

  6. #26
    Sergeant dethzero's Avatar
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    Hmm, I never used any of them but next game I should try some =D

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Varil View Post
    I love summons. Need instant defense in a city? No problem! Need to clear a monster den? No problem! Want a cheap scout? No problem!

    Regarding increasing casting time...what if instead of a maximum cast per turn, what if each additional spell cast per turn was more expensive? Maybe add, say, 50% of the cost of spells previously cast that round to any additional spells cast, with maybe some limit based on the cost of whatever you're casting so you don't end up with something like a 100 mana firebolt because you cast thunderstorm earlier in the round. Maybe a cap of something like +100% of the original cost of the spell per spell cast. So if you cast some ludicrous 1000 mana spell(just bear with me here), then you cast a 20 mana spell several times, it'd cost 40 mana, then 60, then 80, and so on. It'd probably still be more economical to cast the cheaper spells first, but that's what you get for not planning ahead .

    Anyway, the idea would be that it'd be better to plan ahead, but a player could theoretically blow their entire mana stash in a single turn, but less efficiently than using it in a more measured fashion.
    That sounds like a good idea, but could probably break the game balance with how easy it is to hoard mana. Expanding on this idea, how about instead you allow great mages to cast an extra turns worth of spells for double the cost? That would keep the amount of spells flying around manageable (remember archmage and agile mind contribute) and allow great mages to spend excess mana. On this topic as well, I'd like to see agile mind broken up into two spells, one which becomes available somewhat early in the game but is restricted by its cost, and the other a mid-lategame spell. It'd be a way to get more spells flying as the game progresses and more mana becomes availible. It'd be interesting with such changes to dedicate an entire empire to mana generation and go full offensive great mage.

  8. #28
    If I could mod Mage traits, I'd make Archmage increase spellcasting speed by 100%, cost zero points, and give it to every pre-generated Mage. We could use an across the board boost to spellcasting speed, and that'd be the easiest way to do it without manually editing the cast times of all the spells.

  9. #29
    I'd like that- though it would make Counter-Spell useful mainly for the Unity problem.
    Feel free to call me App. It's shorter.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by The Apprentice View Post
    I'd like that- though it would make Counter-Spell useful mainly for the Unity problem.
    I think being able to counter more expensive spells with a less expensive counterspell that always works renders the more expensive spells entirely useless once counterspell is in play.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Empyrean View Post
    If I could mod Mage traits, I'd make Archmage increase spellcasting speed by 100%, cost zero points, and give it to every pre-generated Mage. We could use an across the board boost to spellcasting speed, and that'd be the easiest way to do it without manually editing the cast times of all the spells.
    That'd be the practical way. Though I think lategame with agile mind and that perk would get pretty hectic with the ability to cast some of the more destructive magic so quickly.

  12. #32
    Which would speed up the endgame potentially, so I'd be fine with that! If there is a concern with too much magic casting in the beginning (say, an early Vampiric Weapons Research), maybe add another Agile Mind spell as others have suggested. That would make it mid-game ish and still reduce the mana pile at endgame- I have 10k at turn 104 in a large map I'm playing at the moment.
    Feel free to call me App. It's shorter.

  13. #33
    I'm guessing you are at war with everyone. Hard to hoard anything with the AI's asking you for half of what you have every other turn.

    Would be interesting watching Armageddons drop every turn.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Varil View Post
    Regarding increasing casting time...what if instead of a maximum cast per turn, what if each additional spell cast per turn was more expensive? Maybe add, say, 50% of the cost of spells previously cast that round to any additional spells cast, with maybe some limit based on the cost of whatever you're casting so you don't end up with something like a 100 mana firebolt because you cast thunderstorm earlier in the round.
    Love the idea. But maybe something simpler: no casting time limit, but the cost of each spell increases by a set amount for each spell previously cast--say, 20. That way, each spell always costs the same, but if you want to cast two spells you pay an additional 20, three spells means 40, etc. Maybe the number could be different, or change over the course of a game, but I think that you're on to something here.

  15. #35
    Sergeant camelotcrusade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Empyrean View Post
    I think being able to counter more expensive spells with a less expensive counterspell that always works renders the more expensive spells entirely useless once counterspell is in play.
    Good point. In Age of Wonders II, there was a counter spell called Disjunction. It had a scaling cost - and casting time - based on what it was dispelling. And it never had a 100% chance to work, but you could spend more mana along a slider to up your chance. Sure, you could save and load it until it worked, but not in multiplayer. Anyway, this mechanic was a great way to deal with the issue you importantly raised.

    Edit: And to stay on the topic of summons, AoW II also had a spell called Banish summon. Didn't have a 100% chance to work but could one-shot a summoned creature and was expensive to cast. It's chance to work was based on a set attack value of the spell vs. the target's magic resistance. Similarly, it also had a spell called Bind Summon. Same mechanic, but when it worked, you took it over.
    Last edited by camelotcrusade; 16-05-2012 at 02:57.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by camelotcrusade View Post
    Good point. In Age of Wonders II, there was a counter spell called Disjunction. It had a scaling cost - and casting time - based on what it was dispelling. And it never had a 100% chance to work, but you could spend more mana along a slider to up your chance. Sure, you could save and load it until it worked, but not in multiplayer. Anyway, this mechanic was a great way to deal with the issue you importantly raised.
    Counterspells in Master of Magic worked this way. Dispel chance was a function of the amount of mana you spent compared to the cost of the other wizard's spell, and casting time was a function of mana cost.

  17. #37
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    I hardly ever use summons. I rely on (meta)teleport to bring in a front line unit to defend against a sudden threat (which is not that frequent and cities can easily take care of themselves for 3-4 turns). I can see how early in the game a ghost wolf can make a difference, but there just is no time pressure with the current state of the AI. So, I just take it easy till I got a few old trolls, then there is nothing stopping me. Don't gimme anything about them elementals being the panzers of fantasy gaming - I'll take my trolls anytime of the week against any elemental. Oh wait - there might be some elemental I have not seen yet - titanium or chlorine might be the ultimate troll killers of course, but I dunno of the AI can actually pull a redcloak

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