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Thread: Otobreda 76mm kills 3 Vessels in 30 Seconds?

  1. #1

    Otobreda 76mm kills 3 Vessels in 30 Seconds?

    Hi dear Arctic Circle Team,

    first my congratulations on this fine game I much enjoy playing!

    A naval war simulation as this is of course a complex game and as such has smaller and larger "errors" or strange behavior, that seems odd to the user: I just played C01S06 "Peekaboo in the Fjords" and it was no challenge at all. What happend: I took the southern Storm(Skjald) and ordered it to head north for the enemy surface group (3 russian ships (medium, medium, large)) at maximum speed. I was surprised, that I wasn't attacked, but OK they didn't detect me. I approached the group from behind and drove well into range for my Otobreda 76mm gun - without being detected or be fired at. Then I started shelling them (when you want to call 7,6cm rounds "shells"...) and then it got really strange. I expected to be blown out of the water in the following seconds or so, but nothing happened at all, I wasn't fired at. On the other hand my 7,6cm gun managed to sink the two medium ships with about 6 shots for each one. The second one managed to fire 1 anti-ship missile at me, just before it sunk. That missile I shot down with my AA missiles and then finished of the larger naval landing operation vessel, with several shots of my 7,6cm gun. Funny as that was, it makes no sense at all to me, regarding the size of these ships and the limited destructive power of a 7,6cm gun. Or am I erring in some point in my understanding of that setting? I would really like just two lines on this, out of curiosity if this "Teminator-Skjald"-variant is intentional or more a combat mechanics glitch.

    Keep up the good work,
    kind regards,
    Arno Birner
    (Germany)

  2. #2
    Turbo Tape Games Dev JanH's Avatar
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    That's funny.

    It sounds like the damage taken from a 76 mm is exaggerated, but remember this gun fires 120 rounds/min! It really simulates bursts not single shots (and the available ammo should be reduced accordingly). I really have no idea how much damage twenty 76 mm shells could do to a large surface ship, but I would not be surprised if they would be destroyed.

    The surprise is that the enemy didn't shoot back, but the Skjolds are stealthy, and can fire well beyond the range they can reasonably be detected by surface based sensors. Another question is if incoming fire should have alerted the enemy to fire at least a bearing only ASM missile back at you; the AI is not yet that advanced.

    So, yes, if you get within gun range with a stealthy corvette, you can take out a surface task force with gunfire. Is that realistic? I don't really know. What do you guys say?

    Another issue: As people like you discover new tricks, some of the missions can get too easy

  3. #3
    I had a similar experience; one of the escorts was already damaged, but the Skjald finished all three off within a minute or two. The Soviet force never returned fire, or changed course/speed.

    That 76mm Otobreda is a fearsome weapon, but I don't know if it could destroy three large surface combatants that quickly. I get that she could open up before being detected by the enemy; but after she opened up, surprise should be lost.

    Is there some way to reflect this in game engine; maybe make a ship or plane that has used it's gun automatically become detected by all craft within a certain radius?

    In the real world, I would think that the three ships in the invasion force would be on a hair trigger, with lots of eyes facing out in every direction, and the bridge and CIC reacting very quickly to someone opening up on them like that. Maybe some of the current or ex navy folks would have an opinion...?

  4. #4
    I served on a patrolboat (Hauk class) And from our experiences in exercises: If you catch the enemy off guard he is dead, We actually once took out 2 PBs and a Frigate during an exercise. But they did not come at the same time, they came picewise and i believe the enemy ships were taken out before they could plot us onto the data link. The enemy however were at half guard(level below battlestations). If they all come at the same time(within 5-10km of each other) we would not stand a chance. And this was night so it was easier to hide (even though all enemies were equipped with IR cameras).

    I would recon 5-8 salvos(7-10 shots) at close range (<3km) would disable most medium sized warships(frigates), 2-3 salvos for PBs. 5 salvos would take approx 30sek-1 min to fire. I would say max speed of disabling(i.e take out guns and the bridge/CIC, not sink!) would be 30sek for PBs or one min for a frigate. The enemy should react within 10-20 seconds and fire back if they are on alert.

    Some sort of increased visual crossesection when fireing might be an idea?
    Last edited by Gorduz; 09-05-2012 at 23:11.

  5. #5
    Lord High Admiral General Baker's Avatar
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    It must help that warships nowadays don't carry any real armour anymore?

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    Turbo Tape Games Dev JanH's Avatar
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    The Otobreda has a max range of 30 km in the game. That is well beyond the distance you can visually detect a surface ship from the ocean surface, even if it is firing at you. Thus, you would have to rely on the above-the-horizon capabilities of radar (absent friendly aircraft). I doubt any surface radar can detect a very stealthy Skjold at such a distance. So, I actually think a Skjold would have the upper hand in this conflict, at least until it ran out of ammo. I think the only short-term defensive option would be a bearing only launch missile against it (at least in this game).

  7. #7
    Jan's last statement begs the question, if the Russians can't see the Skjold, how is it targeting with the 76mm over the horizon??

  8. #8
    Thanks for the quick answer Jan. The main point is the high fire rate and that the game actually computes bursts (I had thought about this as explanation, but then wasn't sure because of the then incorrect amount of ammo - but you covered that in your answer).
    I think a somewhat realistic approach is, to take into account that the actual damage would be highly dependent on what is actually hit on the targetted vessel. Some concept of critical hits springs to mind to cover that, but it's maybe too much effort for this minor issue. It might be enough just to tune down the available ammo and make a missile- or gun-firing vessel in visual range of a surface or land target auto-detected after a few seconds. (to not complicate things maybe just hard-code that "visual range" to e.g. 12km for small, 19km for med and 25 km for large vessels to be ssen (night is not a factor, because due to the flash the firing is as well visible as at daytime))
    Last edited by abirner; 10-05-2012 at 03:28.

  9. #9
    The 5100 ton HMCS Huron was sunk by 76mm gunfire during the Canadian's 2007 sinkex. Other weapons were used during the sinkex, but the 76mm gun seemed to be the one that sealed her fate. Video: http://www.canadaka.net/forums/canad...ex-t73967.html

    You can see that they aim for the waterline, creating holes that cause flooding. Even with a high firing rate, I doubt that you could sink a frigate-sized ship within seconds. And of course, the Mistral class ships are much larger than frigates, so that'd probably taken much longer. Skjold is a formidable weapon nonetheless; wish we had some of them in our navy.

  10. #10
    Turbo Tape Games Dev JanH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capn Darwin View Post
    Jan's last statement begs the question, if the Russians can't see the Skjold, how is it targeting with the 76mm over the horizon??
    Not so. Some other unit, probably an aircraft, is doing the spotting. Or the target units are radiating.

    The Skjold is link capable also in real life; in the game all units use our patented SuperLink(tm)

  11. #11
    Well I guess thats the problem. I hardly think you would hit anything with a gun without laser, radar or even visual firecontrol. Would it be possible to reduce accuracy at long ranges if the fire control radar on the skjold is off?

    And using a cannon it never about sinking the other ship. By simply taking out radar/targeting systems, hitting the bridge or CIC the ship is pretty much useless.

  12. #12
    Turbo Tape Games Dev JanH's Avatar
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    That's absolutely possible, but I am not convinced that modern guns cannot fire very accurately based on exact fixes via link.

  13. #13
    Ok that fair. We only had link 11 on our boat so perhaps modern link systems are better.

    The major problem I think is the accuracy of the link contact if the gun is to hit the link contact must be accurate to within 10m and without on board sensors providing correction I don't think any skipper would fire an unguided weapon on a link contact.

    As said I base most my knowledge on serving one year on board a Super Hauk class PB in Bergen. I guess there are people here with more service time that know this better than me.

  14. #14
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    With 120 rounds a minute its not impossible to sink 3 ships in 30 sek, in 30 sek its 60 rounds, 20 pr ship.
    What about shell travel time, when firing that fast a lot of shells could be in the air before the first one struck, when i was in the Coast Artillery we had cannons that fired 25 rounds a minute, and when engaging target over a long distance we could engage multiple targets before the first shell landed.

    And if the Russian ships are like most modern warships, they only have a bow mounted gun and if KNM Skjold sneak up behind them the Russians actually have to turn theyr ship to get their cannons to bear.

    And Skjold can spot the russians without the russians spotting Skjold. if the russians are detected the lookout on Skjold know what to look for and where to look, when spottet they can aim and fire the gun.
    If the russians dont know Skjold is there the lookouts are just monitoring the water and sky, looking for ships, periscopes, airplanes, missiles and torpedos, water and sky for hour after hour and Skjold is a low profile camopainted boat, easy to miss at a long distance.

  15. #15
    Recruit Mtl's Avatar
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    There are several factors to consider:

    In the fist post we are not told if its dark or not, which IRL would make quite the difference when sneaking up on the enemy.

    If you are completely covert, you'll not be able to measure the proper distance and exact bearing from your gun. You would require a spotter that could see the rounds hit and adjust the fire accordingly, not an easy task on a moving target possibly 7 or 8 nm away. If you want to see the rounds actually hit the target in specific places, say the waterline, you must be very close, that is however not recommended against multiple foes. You could off course use your TDL and receive target information from another source, but again, current link systems often has a little misalignment that would result in missing the target completely when firing blind, this could of course be fixed in 2030 using JanH's patented superlink

    In my experience there are only two ways you would get a good result attacking with your main gun; Using your eyeball mk. 1 at a very close distance or using your fire control radar at any distance.
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    You can fire optical at a very long distance too, these guns are equipped with good optics, and before opening fire they would prob shoot a laser shot on the enemy, providing firecontroll with accurate range, air density etc.

    When i was in the Navy and Coast Artillery they had optic, thermic, infrared and laser availible at fire controll and guns.

  17. #17
    Recruit Mtl's Avatar
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    I would imagine the Norwegian coast artillery was located high up on some fjeld to get a very good visual horizon - a Skjold class e/o director is located ~8-9 meter above the sea (a guesstimate), which means that you will see the very very top of the mast of a Udaloy class destroyer at 18 nm, and that is in good daylight conditions. Firing a 76 mm at max range, 16 nm, you'd not be able to see very much of the target in order to make spotter adjustments and direct your fire. If you are hitting the target at random you will potentially need lots and lots of rounds to disable it, or you could get lucky in your first shot.

    As for the laser ranger, most larger Russian combat ships are equipped with laser warning systems, similar to a regular ESM-system, that would alert the enemy the same way it would if you'd turn on your fire control radar.
    "Next to God the Almighty's gracious providence, the Welfare, Safety and Strength of the Kingdom is founded on the Navy."

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  18. #18
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    Skjold is low, dont know how much they will see of the Udaloy at 18nm but they will see the Udaloy before the Udaloy will see Skjold.
    How close the Skjold can get before detected by sonar, infrared, a lookout or radar i dont know. I heard from a mate on a frigate that sonar was always first to detect a Skjold class.
    Night/Day, cloud or clear sky, snow, rain, waves and vind also matters here.
    Yes, there are laser warning systems, but the laser is the last ting you do before you fire, and fire controll computers are realy good, gun shells would probarbly be underway a second or two after the laser.
    Dont know how the Udaloy heat signature is, but a fire solution by Thermal and Infrared is also possible.

    The questions here are.
    How close can the Skjold get undetected.
    How close do the Skjold have to get to get a good firing solution for its gun.
    How fast do the Russian ship that is fired upon react.
    How fast do the other Russian ships react.
    What should be the hitrate of the 76mm Otobreda when firing from a moving platform on a moving ship.
    What link to the Royal Norwegian Navy use in 2030.
    Did the Skjold flip on radar when engagin?
    Can Skjold adjust fire in realtime using an airborne radar that is connected to its link?

    We had Link 11 and Link 16, what link is in use now?

    And the coast artillery was mostly located underground, but we had sensors and cameras mounted on high ground.

  19. #19
    Even with all the data links in effect from spotting patforms/resources I just find it a bit hard to fathom that a moving ship firing at another moving ship at maximum range (my experience with this scenario) sinks it in a few seconds with a 3" gun. Sure, a half dozen rounds from a modern 3" gun might be enough to inflict fatal damage on a medium size vessel if they all hit at the waterline - but is that realistic from 16 nm? Factors that would introduce small margins of error at closer ranges (wind gusts, humidity, pitching seas, slight course changes or drifts, spotting margin of error, etc.) would become exponentially greater (and in combination perhaps significant) at maximum distance, no? I'll admit that I have not replayed this scenario since the latest patch, which I understand introduces an accuracy penalty at longer ranges (unless I misread)?

  20. #20
    Sergeant Quanzar's Avatar
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    Skjold detect russians visualy at 11 nm.
    Russians engage and sink Skjold at 4 nm, dont know how they detected.

    When Skjold engage at max range it takes 24 shots to sink a frigate and 37 to sink a landing ship, skjold does not detect the russians but get its fire solution through JanH`s super data link.
    Can Skjold use an airborne radar to get a fire solution and correct fire underway, getting info from a 2030 data link?

    When Skjold flip on Radar its engaged and sunk immideatly.

    During the air battle the russian task force flip on radar.
    Can Skjold get a fire solution through targeting the radar or does it still use the super link?

    When Skjold close in and engage at 6nm it takes 22 shots (or bursts) to kill all 3 ships.
    After a few shots the russian frigates starts to turn around but are sunk before they can bring the cannons to bear, i assume that anti surface missiles are out of order du to gunfire or fire onborad sink those are not used.
    Last edited by Quanzar; 12-05-2012 at 13:20. Reason: typo

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