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France over nerfed?

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Europa Universalis III 46143 EU3 - After Action Reports (AAR)
AI france suffers from similar problems as the AI ottomans do. They start out strong, but with similarly strong neighbours (in France's case the HRE, England and Castille), and once they lose one war its very hard for them to get back up, since they will mostly sit on very low prestige etc. Yes, there are Super-France's out there, but they too have a big problem, namely that you can very easily dismantle them. Alone the release of Dauphine and Guyenne takes away a HUGE chunk of the core of their nation. Similar stuff can happen to the OE with the release of byzantium or the turkish beyliks.
I believe one of the biggest detriminators to historical plausibility is the oftentimes lacking dominance of the superpowers through most of the time, namely France and the OE and to a lesser extent Austria.
 
Guillaume HJ said:
Throughout most of the EU era, France ranged between 2x and 3x the population of Spain. Castille alone would be even worse of. That's a significant disadvantage to overcome right up.
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Except that historically the reformation and regencies hurt France more than they ever could in game. Spain was the strongest power in Europe from the mid 16th century to the early/mid 17th century (all that wealth from the new world). At the same time France was a chaotic mess with civil war between the Catholics and Huguenots, and revolts during the long regencies for Louis XIII and Louis XIV. Ultimately Spain spent itself fighting for Catholic uniformity and Louis XIV was able to build France into the strongest European power, but that wasn't until near the end of the 17th century. But that would be hard to replicate with game mechanics, as making the reformation or regencies more drastic could cause serious balance issues.

As for my personal experience, I have only seen France implode twice. Most of the time they unified and start pushing Europe around until I beat them down.
 
Iwanow said:
Can't ;(... unless, someone would post it for me. But otherwise not. Maybe you could help me?
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You can ask stnikolauswagne to do that for you and perhaps add in some paragraphs about how glorious it is for a player to beat down an A.I. HRE, since it apparently is something everyone else is incapable of doing.

Still it is relevant because i was commenting austria being scary.
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We are talking about balance between the A.I. and not about how easy it is for the player to beat down any A.I. after the player blobs.
 
The other problem with Austria is the fact you can't really Balkanize it like France.Same Can be said of Castille. Beating Austria and releasing Styria and Tyrol doesn't even phase Austria, because remainder of the country is so much more powerful than Styria and Tyrol. Unless player takes an interest in keeping Austria down it will always blob up again.
 
Hootieleece said:
The other problem with Austria is the fact you can't really Balkanize it like France.Same Can be said of Castille. Beating Austria and releasing Styria and Tyrol doesn't even phase Austria, because remainder of the country is so much more powerful than Styria and Tyrol. Unless player takes an interest in keeping Austria down it will always blob up again.
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I think you are misunderstanding the root of Austrias Strenght. It mainly lies in its easily defensible western border and two Gold provinces. Take away them and it is just a 4 PM with Nice sliders and a strong taxbase, not unlike Flanders should it be released. They might still be able to field a 20k army, but a full sized austria can afford thrice that if it just mints like crazy....

And @ AAR, a detailed Chronicle of the exploits of Chronicler and Iwanow or perhaps even a MP showoff between the two of them would be great fun, if one only had the time for that :(
 
Hootieleece said:
The other problem with Austria is the fact you can't really Balkanize it like France.Same Can be said of Castille. Beating Austria and releasing Styria and Tyrol doesn't even phase Austria, because remainder of the country is so much more powerful than Styria and Tyrol. Unless player takes an interest in keeping Austria down it will always blob up again.
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Well actualy it does kill them, because it take gold provinces from them. If you do it, they own only 3 provinces. Even if they are still HRE, it hurts them greatly. With burgundy, you just have to release flanders to kill them.

But if they conquer anything outside their starting positions, and there is no country you can release from their conquered provinces, they stay strong.

But i agree with nick, that flanders are quite otherwise. Still if you are france, you can eat them in 1 war.

But i just don't like the idea of playing mp with chrionicler. He would annoy me too much.
 
Hootieleece said:
The other problem with Austria is the fact you can't really Balkanize it like France.Same Can be said of Castille. Beating Austria and releasing Styria and Tyrol doesn't even phase Austria, because remainder of the country is so much more powerful than Styria and Tyrol. Unless player takes an interest in keeping Austria down it will always blob up again.
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Err no. Once Austria releases Tirol and Styria, it'd spend the remainder of the game trying to retake them. While it'd still pack a punch without the gold provinces, it's effectively game over for them unless Bohemia is somehow taken out.

Except that historically the reformation and regencies hurt France more than they ever could in game. Spain was the strongest power in Europe from the mid 16th century to the early/mid 17th century (all that wealth from the new world). At the same time France was a chaotic mess with civil war between the Catholics and Huguenots, and revolts during the long regencies for Louis XIII and Louis XIV. Ultimately Spain spent itself fighting for Catholic uniformity and Louis XIV was able to build France into the strongest European power, but that wasn't until near the end of the 17th century. But that would be hard to replicate with game mechanics, as making the reformation or regencies more drastic could cause serious balance issues.
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Actually, Spain was very strong even before the Reformation. The Italian Wars firmly established Spain as the dominant European power at that time period, despite Austrian involvement. It wasn't until the late 17th century when the tides change between Spain and France.

And what did Spain in was not simply the religious wars, but the fact that it had grew decadent from the plunders of the New World and stagnated in all aspects while other nations in Europe remained competitive. To some extent, that also occurred to Poland and Austria (and we saw how these countries end up in history).

And @ AAR, a detailed Chronicle of the exploits of Chronicler and Iwanow or perhaps even a MP showoff between the two of them would be great fun, if one only had the time for that
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It'd be fun to watch a MP game with Ivanov as Poland or Muscovy, Chronicler as England or France, and then some experienced players like KneeHi as Venice or something. I'd look forward to the Day 1 DoW on Constantinople and fast-track HRE/Germany/Russia formation.
 
ywhtptgtfo said:
Err no. Once Austria releases Tirol and Styria, it'd spend the remainder of the game trying to retake them. While it'd still pack a punch without the gold provinces, it's effectively game over for them unless Bohemia is somehow taken out.

Actually, Spain was very strong even before the Reformation. The Italian Wars firmly established Spain as the dominant European power at that time period, despite Austrian involvement. It wasn't until the late 17th century when the tides change between Spain and France.

And what did Spain in was not simply the religious wars, but the fact that it had grew decadent from the plunders of the New World and stagnated in all aspects while other nations in Europe remained competitive. To some extent, that also occurred to Poland and Austria (and we saw how these countries end up in history).

It'd be fun to watch a MP game with Ivanov as Poland or Muscovy, Chronicler as England or France, and then some experienced players like KneeHi as Venice or something. I'd look forward to the Day 1 DoW on Constantinople and fast-track HRE/Germany/Russia formation.
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Well actualy i played poland while lama was austria. And he DID was scared of me(did not dare to touch bohemia), until he backstabbed(he told i can take silesia, so i dowed it, then he came to help it, and actualy helped them - but in the end, silesia was mine vassal) me and killed my army. Then still i almost defeated him(my vassals helped me), but i was backstabbed by ottomans(who told he will help me killing austria - yeah, he helped me a lot :p).

And i got better tech speed than austria before you ask. Was aiming at LT 10, but before it came to it, Lama said he don't want to continue the game(dunno why, can only speculate he saw he will lose anyway in the end, or just got some problems in the real world that make him impossible to play - whatever i can only guess what would have happen).
 
Most of the Italian Wars involved one Charles V. And Charles V...

Well, Holy Roman Emperor + Personal Union of Spain and Austria (with the Netherlands) + having just cashed in on the INcaztec Piggy Bank, vs France sounds like a horrible defeat for France in-game. HRE Austria alone is enough to give France conniptions, without the Netherlands and without Spain and without all the extra disposable income. Even after CharlesV, Spain meant Spain + the Netherlands, almost always allied with HRE Austria. That's more than enough firepower to bring France low.

Prior to that it's true that Aragon/Spain did win a limited conflict against France, by which I mean it chased the French army that was in Naples out of Naples and kept Naples for good. Localised war, a lower-manpower nation can win even against a much stronger adversary, because both sides have limited resources by definition, and winning a few key battles may be enough to win the war. This is harder to represent in-game (The Native Americans know something about this), but that's more to do with how the game works (limited wars is a term the AI wouldn't know if it was cutting its face apart with a chainsaw).

It was, however, the later wars, especially the one where Francis I was taken prisoner, that established Spain as the preeminent power.
 
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Iwanow said:
Well actualy i played poland while lama was austria. And he DID was scared of me(did not dare to touch bohemia), until he backstabbed(he told i can take silesia, so i dowed it, then he came to help it, and actualy helped them - but in the end, silesia was mine vassal) me and killed my army. Then still i almost defeated him(my vassals helped me), but i was backstabbed by ottomans(who told he will help me killing austria - yeah, he helped me a lot :p).

And i got better tech speed than austria before you ask. Was aiming at LT 10, but before it came to it, Lama said he don't want to continue the game(dunno why, can only speculate he saw he will lose anyway in the end, or just got some problems in the real world that make him impossible to play - whatever i can only guess what would have happen).
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Is that the same game where you got raped by other players for stepping onto too many toes?

"Spain", at the time of the Italian wars, really meant the Spain of Charles V. Which is a smidgeon more than just "Spain" - it's Spain, Austria, the Netherlands, and assorted other odds and ends. Topped, early on, by the ability to hire mercenaries off New World gold (before the backlash of all that New World gold came into play).
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Even before Charles V, Spain was already extremely powerful under the Catholic Monarchs.

And of course... even with the treasures from the New World in the game, a fully or almost fully-unified Spain would still be thoroughly trounced without exception in a land war by an incompletely-formed France or the tiny 1399 Austria.
 
If it came to a war of total conquest between France and Spain of the Catholic Monarchs, I'd probably put my money on France. This is because in that sort of war, the ability to sustain losses and keep coming back for more matters a lot more than the ability to win individual battles, even in a spectacular manner.

(A few decades later, Charles V vs France, both historically and game mechanics, would be a crushing defeat for France)

Of course, historically, that sort of attempts to totally take over another country was exceedingly rare, and it's NOT what you'd expect the Spanish and french to meet on the battlefield about. Unfortunately also, that memo didn,t get to Paradox.
 
ywhtptgtfo said:
Is that the same game where you got raped by other players for stepping onto too many toes?
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Not realy. Only 2 times i got defeated. One when austria, ottomans, novgorod and hansa attacked me at the same moment, second when i was called in a war by portugal to war against ottomans(don't ask i don't realy know how it is possible i accepted alliance from portugal). And Novgorod got a real beating from me in the war before so he joined turkey. But it is not like i stepped his toe. He stepped on mine(i was allied to him, but he backstabbed me). Same with turkey. Try to gain Hungary, lithuania, TO and silesia, while getting constantly backstabbed.

EDIT: And getting LT8 before austria.

EDIT: BUT to get ontopic back, IMHO problem with AI france is that burgundy is in the HRE, which makes it pretty impossible for france to defeat them.
 
If it came to a war of total conquest between France and Spain of the Catholic Monarchs, I'd probably put my money on France. This is because in that sort of war, the ability to sustain losses and keep coming back for more matters a lot more than the ability to win individual battles, even in a spectacular manner
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The ability to finance a war also mattered a lot.

Iwanow said:
Not realy. Only 2 times i got defeated. One when austria, ottomans, novgorod and hansa attacked me at the same moment, second when i was called in a war by portugal to war against ottomans(don't ask i don't realy know how it is possible i accepted alliance from portugal). And Novgorod got a real beating from me in the war before so he joined turkey. But it is not like i stepped his toe. He stepped on mine(i was allied to him, but he backstabbed me). Same with turkey. Try to gain Hungary, lithuania, TO and silesia, while getting constantly backstabbed.
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Yeah, I am sure you made stnikolauswagne scream like a school girl in every MP game.

EDIT: BUT to get ontopic back, IMHO problem with AI france is that burgundy is in the HRE, which makes it pretty impossible for france to defeat them.
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You forgot to log in as Chronicler.
 
ywhtptgtfo said:
The ability to finance a war also mattered a lot.

Yeah, I am sure you made stnikolauswagne scream like a school girl in every MP game.

You forgot to log in as Chronicler.
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Well, stop making me laugh. I might be not best player in the world, but you suppose that i am just a loser.

And are more troll than me, continuing this thread. You should better answer it without trying your petty insults on me. No arguments, just underrating your opponent in discusion. How typpicaly leftwing. But out of the ironic disucussion, France is much nerfed, as are ottomans, muscowy, poland, and enlgand. Only not nerfed country is castille, who typpicaly conquer north america instead colonizing or uniting spain.

Only in MP everything in europe can go plausible, but it is certainly rare in sp.
 
I would say they are fine. France for some reason can recover exceptionally well from a massive war. I've seen Burgandy and England make them release vassals only for France to take back all of the vassals and Burgandy in 50 years. Bohemia on the other hand does need a bit of a nerf
 
Iwanow said:
Well, stop making me laugh. I might be not best player in the world, but you suppose that i am just a loser.

And are more troll than me, continuing this thread.
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I tend to be pretty on-topic. When the thread is about whether or not France is underpowered (by itself or relative to other countries), I'd stick with the general flow of ideas instead of going all RAAAWWRRRR I EAT HRE AUSTRIA/BOHEMIA/BURGUNDY FOR BREAKFAST!!! :)

No arguments, just underrating your opponent in discusion. How typpicaly leftwing.
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I see... That's how the lefties work. :)

I would say they are fine. France for some reason can recover exceptionally well from a massive war. I've seen Burgandy and England make them release vassals only for France to take back all of the vassals and Burgandy in 50 years. Bohemia on the other hand does need a bit of a nerf
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Yeah, I'd say Bohemia does persistently blob and can become quite unmanageable without player intervention. One of the main factors is that it can just cut through Poland, Lithuania, and Russia faster than German panzers rolling over hussars. Given that the Polish provinces are quite rich, it can become enormously powerful just by winning the first few wars in the east.
 
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