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Thread: Hell at Iberia..

  1. #1

    Hell at Iberia..

    Honestly.. Why do the Iberic Kings throws themselves at impossible wars ? And why do the moors always help themselves whilst the christian kings wage suicidal wars with both muslims and christians ?

    Again.. It is REALLY ANNOYING. Since the new awesome (not being ironic) 'multi-war system', with mutual help, it's almost impossible to play there, it's hell.

    What happen is: The retarded and belligerant christian kings just kill each other like there is tomorrow whilst the moors overwhelm EVERYONE.

    Anyone with me ?

    Please, do something.. I've already posted a thousand times at the wishlist, and i have the feeling that i'm wasting my time.

    I'm not saying that the Peninsula and Reconquista wars were like a garden of eden or whatever. I'm just asking to be more reasonable with the balance of strenghts.

    Thanks in advance !

  2. #2
    register your game and check out some mods, some of them address this issue.

  3. #3
    Captain Corelay's Avatar
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    It's not impossible at all- in fact, the Holy Orders make it postively easy to annihilate the Muslims in Iberia. Just pick your wars carefully.

  4. #4
    Field Marshal grumphie's Avatar
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    we might be able to do it, but there are a few objections:

    the AI is generally not capable to survive until the holy orders. the massive cristian infighting is a real problem, and is the mauritanian expansion into ibeira as they can easly raise well over 10k troops at that time. less infighting between the brothers and less mauritanian eagerness to take over spain no matter what would balance thigns out more.

    the AI is not capable to use holy orders to dominate doomstacks and quickly assualt holdings resulting in big wars of attrition they are bound lose as they cant pay the holy order.

    the enormous eagerness to join other rulers in defence of their faith results in massive doomstacks. nerfing it to max 3 rulers/allies can join no matter what/also offensive joining cna balance things.

  5. #5
    Captain Corelay's Avatar
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    That the AI Spanish nations fare poorly in Spain is very possibly an issue, sure. But the idea that it is 'almost impossible' to play there yourself is simply untrue. Even before the Holy Orders arrive, you can start expanding by using De Jure claims, timing your Holy Wars correctly and making alliances; the Orders just let you suddenly finish the job very quickly.

    I really have no issue with nations of similar religion combining to defend against Holy Wars, which are very powerful tools already. I also don't think an arbitrary limit would work well. Better AI behaviour is the way to go- the AI does not currently recognise the risk of Holy Wars, is the main issue (though I also agree that the AI does not know when a blitz assault war is needed, as indeed getting into an attentional war in Iberia will doom you).

    If anything, Holy Wars are still too powerful, as the Muslims are getting annihilated across the board in my games. The idea has been raised to limit them to nations you share a border with, which is a good idea as the HRE keeps taking much of North Africa when I play and that seems a little much.

    (And got in my way too- grr)
    Last edited by Corelay; 08-05-2012 at 14:33.

  6. #6
    Field Marshal grumphie's Avatar
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    i currntly just finished the reconquista of spain with leon. before holy orders it was HELL. i attacked when they were having inyternal wars/barcelona was hitting them. as i couldnt defeat tthem fast enoguh(as they useally pull in 2 or so states regardless) the war wasnt finished before the great moment to attack was over and got gangbanged. lucky me i initially killed off my brothers and thus had a large demense. initially, i was able to take on the muslims with the help on 1-2 mercenaries, navarra and aragon. however, as it takes a craplaod of time for newly conquered provinces to assimilate and give leviesi didnt grew. also, becuase they were tech wise FAR superiour to me they quickly build out their provinces and thus armies growing their armies till the point where i just couldnt overcoem them unless there was a civil war in mauritania and cordoba. the only thign that saved me was my allaince with france. i'd personaly want to see buffed africa msulims(as they can be taken out quite easly, save for mauritania) and nerfed ibeira muslims. there shoudl be interaction, there shoudl be games where cirsitains/msulims get wiped out and start invading europe/africa. but it shoudl be balanced with both happening equally and generally balancing eachother to the point where no side wins unless the player interferes.

  7. #7
    Political Dissident Hvymtlboy's Avatar
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    While I agree that the AI cannot handle the Iberian peninsula porperly. I actually find creating the Kingdom of Aragon easier than Ireland...... < shrugs > Maybe I've just played as Barcelona too many times and have it down to a science

  8. #8
    Get claims on christian lands and conquer them as soon as they get weak from wars.

    Sow dissent into mauritania and watch them fight the traitors. They'll win almost every war against the muslim rebels, but they'll spend themselves in it. Conquer every muslim that manages to get independence.

    Save money for the holy orders and pray they are avaiable when you are attacked. Use the holy orders to win a defensive war, then break the truce and go all-in. You don't have to dismiss the holy orders to declare a new war...

  9. #9
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    Yea, I had a fine time with the Duke of Portucale.

  10. #10
    I agree that the Holy Orders really turn the tide towards the Iberian Crowns, but sometimes is REALLY hard to get to them..

    Grumphie may be right; i think that the Mauritanian eagerness, plus the 'non-sense fraticidal' war amongst the three brothers, should be at least rethinked.

  11. #11
    Field Marshal grumphie's Avatar
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    well, it isnt really non-sense, but the problem is:

    muslim nations gang up in ANY defensive holy war, making the jimena dynasty unable to grow
    holy orders arrive often too late to save them
    when they arrive its useally too late as the AI is too bad at using them resulting in ultimatly death for the jimena's
    muslim antions do gobble up their msulim neighbours, letting their strength grow, while cristian infighting useally ends in stalemates where neither gains.

    in the end they get crushed by the pressure of mauritania/cordoba and the infighting. the infighting was historical(as far as i know), but is unbalanced.

    imo, solutions:
    allow frnace to help the jimena's
    buff their starting troops, make them less eager to fight eachother and more muslim infighting
    remove just conquered penalties from culture n religion in iberia
    early, less powerfull, free if defensive and quite cheap(or better said, not a massive dent ina treasury), holy orders for the jimena's that get removed once the real holy orders show up(or stay as a dull version of them).

  12. #12
    Captain Corelay's Avatar
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    Those are very blunt force solutions to a problem which is simply that the AI is not very good at risk management or fast assaults.

    I just tried a game as Leon and got through to the Orders with no real trouble at all. I got a day three rebellion that was supported by one of my brothers, but putting it down simply enabled an early boost to my demense. I had to hold off on expansion for a long time, but patience is often the name of the game. Castille expanded into Muslim territory, teaming up with my help and Barcelona's. Portugal got taken out by the Muslims but that was as bad as it got. Of course, that's just one game (though in every game I've played in Iberia, the Muslims lost heavily), but it is in the nature of this game that sometimes things will turn against you for reasons out of your control. It's certainly been much more pleasant than trying Greece in V2. Maybe you've just been unlucky when playing there.

    The Reconqusita should be a challenge, and it is absolutely doable- in fact, quite easy in many games. There's no need to nerf Muslims or buff Catholics here; there's just a wider issue with the AI in some circumstances.
    Last edited by Corelay; 08-05-2012 at 19:22.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Corelay View Post
    The Reconqusita should be a challenge, and it is absolutely doable- in fact, quite easy in many games. There's no need to nerf Muslims or buff Catholics here; there's just a wider issue with the AI in some circumstances.
    I agree with this - The Reconquista should not be easy by any stretch of the imagination. Muslims had superior technology, hygiene, and for the most part numbers at this point in history so that part of them being too hard is historical. The Jimena brothers in-fighting? Historical.

    I play on very hard on all my games and with enough patience you can win on the Iberian peninsula but it isn't easy. I took over half the peninsula with Aragon in about 150 years.... and then all my sons died fighting Muslims and left me with no heirs - the end.

  14. #14
    Second Lieutenant Lparsons7641's Avatar
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    Nah, I think this is excellent. I love it when the Christians in Iberia get crushed, then it makes it so much easier to conquer the area with Holy War CBs. But when you're playing as one of the Jimenas, I've never had any trouble from the Muslims, I usually uniting all of Hispania and North Africa very fast.
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  15. #15
    Just because Reconquista happened in real life doesn't mean the game has to follow the exact same path. In fact, the game has a pretty good representation on how powerful the nations really were.

    Also, while it is not easy for Iberan players to start up, it is certainly not impossible, you just have to just your wars right.

  16. #16
    Field Marshal Hootieleece's Avatar
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    I agree that player intervention is the Key to Iberian Christian survival. I've played 2 campaigns in Iberia both as Castille. I had no real problems with the Reconquista. I was able to unite Iberia in the 1200's.The beginning is the hardest,winning that first war and the moslem counterattack is crucial. After that it becomes waiting game and striking at oppurtune times. I never had to fight more than one enemy at a time after first 2 wars. I think the AI is too simplistic it attacks weakest neighbor and doesn't take into account the fact that this will make it even easier for moslem AI.

  17. #17
    I don't know, maybe something is 'wrong' with my game. Every game I play I see the Catholic Spanish nations win. They have some troubles at first and it seems they may lose, but they usually unite to fend off the Muslims and sometimes other nations help them (usually France). I've yet to see them lose all of Spain.
    All generalizations are false.

  18. #18
    Iberia is a bit specific in the game.

    I am playing with the Galicia and the 1 and only big advantage at start of the game is bunch of alliances and if you don't use it, you'll go to hell. Also calling all allies in constant wars will stop fighting themselves. And when the big family falls apart, you must have already results or you are going to hell again. But it's important you join every war they call you in to increase the chances for win and you really have to participate. I take mercenaries 4500k if I can afford and blitz siege everything I can.

    You work together or you all fail. There are slight chances that France and HRE will join, but not at the start of the game.

    That is also situation if AI is alone on Iberia. If they start to fight among themselves, they will fall apart. If the fight together, they will thrive.

  19. #19
    Field Marshal grumphie's Avatar
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    i dont think you get it. the iberian kings constantly plot against eachother. turn your back to them and youll get a knife or excommunication in your back. turn your back to the muslims and you get a holy war with some muslim allies in your back. the only way i found to survive it was kill plots against your brothers to get their lands and thus leveis and gold, secure an alliance with france. with a bit of luck barcelona will keep them busy and allow you to eliminate 1-2 states before they focus on you. keeping the offensive is critical, because you wont lose lands if you lose a offensive wars. youll be overwhelmed before the holy orders arrive if you dont.

  20. #20
    Captain Corelay's Avatar
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    Well we do get it, because we've done it. Our experience is simply different from yours and we are trying to explain why.

    Staying on the offensive may be a huge mistake because it is prolonged wars that wiil guarantee a large coalition built against you. It's really about timing (and a little luck).
    Last edited by Corelay; 10-05-2012 at 15:09.

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