Death & Taxes Non-Western tech military

[ywhtptgtfo]

Just as any other player, eating Hindustan is as a Latin country is not much of a challenge. However, one thing that irks me is that despite superior discipline, superior morale, tech advantage, much better general (i.e. fire 6 shock 6 vs. fire 1-3 shock 1-3), I often lose battles if they have a slight numerical advantage or terrain advantage.

While this occurs at a greater extent with the Muslims and Europeans, having that happen with the more backward Indians is not something I'd expect. I suppose that's the outcome of the mod of removing slow-tech limitations. Where Indians would've been around tech 17-18 without inflation in vanilla, they are now tech 25-27 without inflation in D&T (at 1600 AD). Despite having the same troop-type, Muslim and Indian now get faaarrr better fire and shock modifiers that make them possibly even tougher than some of the less land-oriented Latin tech countries.

I did get around that issue by simply crushing them with great numerical advantage, but I feel it's really something that they should've been doing to me in order to win battles and not the other way around. Are Europeans and Indians really on-par military-wise in the 17th century?

[Chamboozer]

Technologically, yes. The superiority of the Europeans rested on their perfection of military strategy during the 30 Years' War, not so much on having better technology. In game terms, It means they'd basically have maxed out army tradition and military NIs. Europeans also made great use of local feuds to turn various rulers against one another.

Something I thought of that might better represent that would be the ability to spend military tradition to increase discipline. 10% tradition for +3% discipline in increasing costs, so the next +3% would cost 20 tradition, and so forth. Modifier expiring after a century.

[ywhtptgtfo]

Technologically, yes. The superiority of the Europeans rested on their perfection of military strategy during the 30 Years' War, not so much on having better technology. In game terms, It means they'd basically have maxed out army tradition and military NIs. Europeans also made great use of local feuds to turn various rulers against one another.

Something I thought of that might better represent that would be the ability to spend military tradition to increase discipline. 10% tradition for +3% discipline in increasing costs, so the next +3% would cost 20 tradition, and so forth. Modifier expiring after a century.

From my 1-game experience, India and China are only a few techs behind other European countries. If anything, they are only getting slightly smaller shock and fire modifiers and, at most, 1 less NI (depending on where you are at in tech)

If what you said is true about the European advantage being in strategy, then D&T made it so that the Indians, Chinese, and Muslims are not far behind (again, they get the same tactics modifiers and similar shock/fire modifiers). In my game, (and as I've said), I am getting whooped in more-than-fair fights against Hindustan. In turn, they get destroyed by the Jalayirids in battles (and of course, I got raped by Jalayirids in fair fights because have the land NI's, 5-star morale, and the lucky nation bonuses). It's not game-breaking of course, but it'd make playing Indians and Chinese much easier because Westernizing is no longer that important until perhaps the mid-18th century where troop stats start to suck.

[Dafool]

From my 1-game experience, India and China are only a few techs behind other European countries. If anything, they are only getting slightly smaller shock and fire modifiers and, at most, 1 less NI (depending on where you are at in tech)

If what you said is true about the European advantage being in strategy, then D&T made it so that the Indians, Chinese, and Muslims are not far behind (again, they get the same tactics modifiers and similar shock/fire modifiers). In my game, (and as I've said), I am getting whooped in more-than-fair fights against Hindustan. In turn, they get destroyed by the Jalayirids in battles (and of course, I got raped by Jalayirids in fair fights because have the land NI's, 5-star morale, and the lucky nation bonuses). It's not game-breaking of course, but it'd make playing Indians and Chinese much easier because Westernizing is no longer that important until perhaps the mid-18th century where troop stats start to suck.

Historically speaking, the Europeans didn't become truly superior until the 18th century at the absolute earliest and even then that wasn't enough to guarantee much. Even Native Americans put up a good fight well into the 1700's. Generally speaking, enemies of any tech/unit group should be equally challenging for pretty much the entirety of the mod's time frame.

[birdboy2000]

If this mod has made it so natives don't have a massively anachronistic disadvantage in land tech, can we have the north american confederacies back in? :P (I might make a personal modmod after my current game, myself. )

[Guillaume HJ]

And the Spanish got kicked out of the Pueblos for over a decade by a native revolt.

If we had "like" buttons on this forum, I'd so click them for Dafool's post.

But this. The process of the developping western tech advantage was a very slow one. Aside from groups that were destroyed almost immediately upon first contact (read: the eternal (bad) examples of the Incaztec), the overhwelming western advantage is pretty much an eighteenth-twentieth century thing, and was far less before that. The way the Paradox games handle it, expecially with the ludicrous neighbor bonus western nations get coupled with the tech rates disparity, is a joke.

[ywhtptgtfo]

Ok, I buy your explanations.

[ywhtptgtfo]

I finished off Hindustan last night and started eating into a giant China (Xia). One thing that really started me is that it has Fort 3 everywhere (really?) and that it's spamming Stock Exchanges. The Fort is fine (despite annoying), but Stock exchanges? Whaat? Even if the combat modifiers should stay, I think the economic buildings need to be postponed a bit. Stuff like Conscription Centers, Custom Houses, Naval Bases, etc are just not something that can be built in 1600 A.D. China (or even 1800 A.D.)

[kepler]

I'd like to have advanced buildings available only later into the game, too. But I like the AI being able to build decent forts.

About military tech, Land tech is not only about proper technology/equipment, it's also about military organization/paradigm (some new units) and tactics (Military Tactics). So saying that, because Europeans gained a technological edge only recently, tech levels should be more or less the same for most of the game is a incomplete justification imho.
Still, I agree that foreign countries should pose a threat to Europeans. The problems in D&T are, as pointed out in the main thread, the Indian giant that usually emerge quite early in the sub-continent and China blobbing into south-east Asia without control.

[ywhtptgtfo]

Anyway, I uploaded a few screens I took last night:

European technology:


Asian technology:


Crazy buildings a little Asian island has:


The removal of slow tech modifiers basically meant Westernization is only important for upgrading military. And then by 1650, you'd have Fort 3 and Stock Exchanges spammed everywhere, as well as ultra-rich Asian islands countries out-teching even the Europeans.

My impression is that the tech progression of Asian countries can be refined a little bit more (although I understand it is a pretty difficult task). One possibility is to set more complex limits on building. For example, Stock Exchange requires tech 30 for Western tech and tech 50 for Chinese tech or something. Alternatively, you can reapplied the vanilla slow tech progression and then change the tactics and shock modifiers to come in later.