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  1. #21
    Field Marshal Dafool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sihulm View Post
    Those ideas don't have threads, or discussion, let alone a pledge to be in 6.0 - despite the fact that they would improve the quality of the mod much more for a much, much larger section of the playerbase. How many people are actually going to play up to 1900 / start games late in the timeframe? Run a poll, maybe, at the very least?
    A later start date does take time and resources, but it's not necessarily a sign that's nothing else is going on. Simple additions like more nations, an extended time frame, or a new decision are far more likely to be mentioned and discussed in the open because they're not a big deal. Larger changes to the mod are often kept in private so we can discuss, work on, and balance them without unneeded feedback while they're still being developed. While every modder loves feedback from their users, sometimes too much feedback about something that isn't even done can be distracting.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by starwarsfan541 View Post
    I will be starting to extend the timeline up to 1900 in the D&T mod for version 6.0, does anyone have ideas on how either the American Civil War should be handled and the American expansion and wars against the Sioux, also, does anyone have any request for certain flavor events, decisions or missions for this time period for any nations?
    1. You have to put in the historically accurate nations that could be put in on the current map constraints: Poland-Lithuania actually had an effect on western Europe, And a big effect on Russia. Without it Russia Blasts through near Eastern Europe like a wave and overtakes the Western parts. Ive personally done this since 3.0 over 3000 times in various Russia games. its not that Russia is own-age in this situation its that there is no Poland-Lithuania to hold it back while Austria consolidates power, or Bohemia consolidates same said power. A rebuild of India is Vastly needed. The money from the silk road brought to India was what made it rich. Many many times I have simply run bankrupt (even in the newer versions) Because indian nations do not have A: the tax in provinces where there should be good tax, and B: because the silk road is either completely unrepresented or Represented poorly (as in the new version) A simple addition of an extra 50 to 200 gold a year would help this. At least until whoever is the first nation to discover India from the cape of good hope happens then it should end and Europe began undercutting India. Proper Native positioning in North America NEEDS to be done. The natives WERE there. They did fight the Europeans, and sometimes they united into semi-powerful forces. If it hadnt been for the rampant diseases from the Europeans, the Natives might have unifyed to stop them, you know like in all those pre 3.0 games where one nation Conquered all of north America? Yeah that was actually a plan among the natives. the problem was There was little support, and by the time there was a decent amount it was to late.


    2. Political and national conventions ideas and institutions: You have to correctly model the rise of Lazzise Farrie (prolly misspelled it) Capitalism. You also have to model the rise Of Socialism, Communism, State Individualism, German pan-nationalism, Polish nationalism, Ukrainian nationalism, Indian Collectivism and nationalism, The Apohogy and fall of the British Empire, by 1900 Brittan WAS bankrupt and had to sell off its navy's and buy naval armaments and ships from the U.S. It had to do so again in 1912 (which is beyond the proposed timeline) but im putting it out there that Victoria allowed said Bankruptcy to occur. The rise of Amrica from a small nation to a world power by 1900. The Beginnings of the Bolshevik revolts And the failed first Russian Republic. The Push out of the notion of the U.S.S.R. Germany's rise to Industrial and military power before WW1, not to mention its formation! Sardinia-Piedmont's successful gains and subsequent formation into Italy! The Austrian revolts that caused Austria to finally become Austria-Hungary. The 2 hour war that left Kyoto and Edo in flames And Japan firmly in Americas grip (yes we went to war with them before WW2!!) The Meji Restorations based off of American Idealism. The rise of Japan as the Power of Eastern Asia through multiple wars. The collapse of China to republican revolts and the rise of multiple nationalist movements within that would later cause it to be in its current National Socialist form.


    I could go on, as this is only about 5% of what actually happened between ACW and 1900.

  3. #23
    The thing is from a 1356 start, the map will not resemble what the political situation would have looked like by 1860. So putting excessive depth of detail of potential situations from 1860 to 1900 that may never play out, it just seems problamatic.

    Now you place everything politically and territorally correct in the history files. Then it would be correct or an 1860 game start, but chances are most players would start from 1356 still and then none of that history gets read by the game. You can script the ai to behave more historically for wars and alliances after 1860 that would be read from a 1356 start, but all those events would have to have clauses for if certain Tags still exist by 1860, that the event was designed for. Imagine if someone started from 1356 as Spain and Spain holds most of NA where England should have historically and the United stated never happens and you have events for the ACW.

    Just adding in histories for an 1860 start is more of a token. I was told that the game wasn't designed to model a 1337 start, but its better equipped from 1337 than 1900.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryasyr View Post
    1. You have to put in the historically accurate nations that could be put in on the current map constraints: Poland-Lithuania actually had an effect on western Europe, And a big effect on Russia. Without it Russia Blasts through near Eastern Europe like a wave and overtakes the Western parts. Ive personally done this since 3.0 over 3000 times in various Russia games. its not that Russia is own-age in this situation its that there is no Poland-Lithuania to hold it back while Austria consolidates power, or Bohemia consolidates same said power.
    I will not comment on the PL Commonwealth. That matter has already been discussed enough. And I've never seen Russia pushing very far west. Certainly nowhere near their historical gains. If you're doing it as a player, that's not really our business. That's completely your choice and is based upon how you play.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryasyr View Post
    A rebuild of India is Vastly needed. The money from the silk road brought to India was what made it rich. Many many times I have simply run bankrupt (even in the newer versions) Because indian nations do not have A: the tax in provinces where there should be good tax, and B: because the silk road is either completely unrepresented or Represented poorly (as in the new version) A simple addition of an extra 50 to 200 gold a year would help this. At least until whoever is the first nation to discover India from the cape of good hope happens then it should end and Europe began undercutting India.
    This is a bit too complex. There are limitations on what we can actually accomplish. As has been stated before, India is getting some reworking and should be a bit more interesting when that's finished.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryasyr View Post
    Proper Native positioning in North America NEEDS to be done. The natives WERE there. They did fight the Europeans, and sometimes they united into semi-powerful forces. If it hadnt been for the rampant diseases from the Europeans, the Natives might have unifyed to stop them, you know like in all those pre 3.0 games where one nation Conquered all of north America? Yeah that was actually a plan among the natives. the problem was There was little support, and by the time there was a decent amount it was to late.
    There's a lot here that's wrong or at least fairly skewed. The natives are well represented at the moment. If you're commenting on the removal of the North American natives, then you must remember that they represented hunter-gatherer societies that lacked urbanization and coherent government in most cases. They're simply not worth portraying because there's not an easy way to model them and they're only messing with colonization patterns. As for surviving, it's perfectly possible. It's not at all uncommon to see a few AI Native American states survive. Some even Christianize and Westernize as well. As for any pan-Native American state, that sounds like a fringe concept and especially in the moment when it matters, at first contact, there was absolutely no such concept.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by redgreen99 View Post
    Just adding in histories for an 1860 start is more of a token. I was told that the game wasn't designed to model a 1337 start, but its better equipped from 1337 than 1900.
    I have to agree that going backwards, if shifting the timeline at all, would be more pleasing than shifting it forward. The only people this would affect are those who play WC games, or people who start at extremely late dates. The vast majority of people start at an early date and reach global supremacy by the 1600s at the latest and start a new game.

    I understand Dafool with how you prefer to develop the more important bits in secret, but honestly some of it could come out in the open anyway if you are going to bring this out in the open. Comments in the thread might be distracting but if you were going to develop that stuff without talking to us anyway then I don't see how our feedback would affect it at all.

    I suppose I don't mind later start dates, but in my opinion it would only work if you could completely revamp how allies and diplomacy and spheres work, and then you have Vicky 2. Current spheres have no real diplomatic importance other than getting an AI to like you a bit more or accept your request of vassalization, and allies will hate you the moment they get an event with a core on you. Nations in the late 1800s, 1900s did not work in ways EU3 can model in any realism.

    Also this is a reply at 3 am so sorry if I was rude anywhere.

  6. #26
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    I would say that any extension of the end of the timeframe makes my (previously stated) arguments and suggestions for a redesign of California a bit more pressing. I would also suggest the possibility of events relating to the Gold Rush (it could be made in a time-independent manner, perhaps based on the proper provinces being colonized and/or fought over). Texas and California as possible revolter nations would be cool too. (California actually did try to rebel from Mexico and declare independence; it only didn't "take" because it happened the same spring that the US-Mexican war started.)

    One thing I'll also toss out is that, since EU3 (and particularly D&T) often sees faster colonization, perhaps the 1750 start dates for the colonial revolters should also be pushed earlier. There are arguments that could be made for some colonies, even in real history, having been "potential revolters" as early as the 1640s.
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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryasyr View Post
    1. You have to put in the historically accurate nations that could be put in on the current map constraints: Poland-Lithuania actually had an effect on western Europe, And a big effect on Russia. Without it Russia Blasts through near Eastern Europe like a wave and overtakes the Western parts. Ive personally done this since 3.0 over 3000 times in various Russia games. its not that Russia is own-age in this situation its that there is no Poland-Lithuania to hold it back while Austria consolidates power, or Bohemia consolidates same said power. A rebuild of India is Vastly needed. The money from the silk road brought to India was what made it rich. Many many times I have simply run bankrupt (even in the newer versions) Because indian nations do not have A: the tax in provinces where there should be good tax, and B: because the silk road is either completely unrepresented or Represented poorly (as in the new version) A simple addition of an extra 50 to 200 gold a year would help this. At least until whoever is the first nation to discover India from the cape of good hope happens then it should end and Europe began undercutting India. Proper Native positioning in North America NEEDS to be done. The natives WERE there. They did fight the Europeans, and sometimes they united into semi-powerful forces. If it hadnt been for the rampant diseases from the Europeans, the Natives might have unifyed to stop them, you know like in all those pre 3.0 games where one nation Conquered all of north America? Yeah that was actually a plan among the natives. the problem was There was little support, and by the time there was a decent amount it was to late.


    2. Political and national conventions ideas and institutions: You have to correctly model the rise of Lazzise Farrie (prolly misspelled it) Capitalism. You also have to model the rise Of Socialism, Communism, State Individualism, German pan-nationalism, Polish nationalism, Ukrainian nationalism, Indian Collectivism and nationalism, The Apohogy and fall of the British Empire, by 1900 Brittan WAS bankrupt and had to sell off its navy's and buy naval armaments and ships from the U.S. It had to do so again in 1912 (which is beyond the proposed timeline) but im putting it out there that Victoria allowed said Bankruptcy to occur. The rise of Amrica from a small nation to a world power by 1900. The Beginnings of the Bolshevik revolts And the failed first Russian Republic. The Push out of the notion of the U.S.S.R. Germany's rise to Industrial and military power before WW1, not to mention its formation! Sardinia-Piedmont's successful gains and subsequent formation into Italy! The Austrian revolts that caused Austria to finally become Austria-Hungary. The 2 hour war that left Kyoto and Edo in flames And Japan firmly in Americas grip (yes we went to war with them before WW2!!) The Meji Restorations based off of American Idealism. The rise of Japan as the Power of Eastern Asia through multiple wars. The collapse of China to republican revolts and the rise of multiple nationalist movements within that would later cause it to be in its current National Socialist form.


    I could go on, as this is only about 5% of what actually happened between ACW and 1900.
    1. I think the PL commonwealth is represented well enough by the PU Lithuania mission at the moment, but I'll play around with the idea and see what effect it has on game play - it's not completely off the table for the future.
    2. Laissez-faire non-interventionalism is represented extremely well afaik by the free trade slider. Socialism/Communism, although their ideas were around at the time, did not have a big enough following to make them worth putting them in, seeing as we're only going up to 1900 that is. (Feel free to disagree with me on that ) Britain wasn't bankrupt by 1900 (although it had been surpassed by Germany), as for its fleet, in fact I believe it had just instituted new naval reforms after scare-mongering by admirals (namely John Fisher) in the press, and was about to embark on its Drednought programme. And the Meji restoration, in my opinion, wasn't based off American idealism, but as a response to bullying from western nations, most notably the USA, Britain and France.

    From those, I like the ideas about nationalism and the PL commonwealth. I'll let SWF do the nationalism thingy, and I'll get to work on trialling a PL commonwealth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sheridan View Post
    I would say that any extension of the end of the timeframe makes my (previously stated) arguments and suggestions for a redesign of California a bit more pressing. I would also suggest the possibility of events relating to the Gold Rush (it could be made in a time-independent manner, perhaps based on the proper provinces being colonized and/or fought over). Texas and California as possible revolter nations would be cool too. (California actually did try to rebel from Mexico and declare independence; it only didn't "take" because it happened the same spring that the US-Mexican war started.)

    One thing I'll also toss out is that, since EU3 (and particularly D&T) often sees faster colonization, perhaps the 1750 start dates for the colonial revolters should also be pushed earlier. There are arguments that could be made for some colonies, even in real history, having been "potential revolters" as early as the 1640s.
    I believe Dafool has already started working on redrawing parts of America And I like the idea of revolter states.

    Quote Originally Posted by zedyue View Post
    I have to agree that going backwards, if shifting the timeline at all, would be more pleasing than shifting it forward. The only people this would affect are those who play WC games, or people who start at extremely late dates. The vast majority of people start at an early date and reach global supremacy by the 1600s at the latest and start a new game.

    I understand Dafool with how you prefer to develop the more important bits in secret, but honestly some of it could come out in the open anyway if you are going to bring this out in the open. Comments in the thread might be distracting but if you were going to develop that stuff without talking to us anyway then I don't see how our feedback would affect it at all.

    I suppose I don't mind later start dates, but in my opinion it would only work if you could completely revamp how allies and diplomacy and spheres work, and then you have Vicky 2. Current spheres have no real diplomatic importance other than getting an AI to like you a bit more or accept your request of vassalization, and allies will hate you the moment they get an event with a core on you. Nations in the late 1800s, 1900s did not work in ways EU3 can model in any realism.

    Also this is a reply at 3 am so sorry if I was rude anywhere.
    We won't get anywhere if people keep questioning our moving of the timeline, it's going to happen so just help us with it please As for extending back to 1337, the way 1356 was added was in the history section of the province files rather than in the starting section of the history files. What that basically means is that every single province, even those that aren't changed from 1356, would have to have new history added and I'm not sure it's worth it to give 19 more years - although the idea isn't completely off the table for the future.

    As for developing in secret, its not so much 'secret', its more that there isnt the space on the thread to discuss every single idea (we need a subforum!). Also, we don't need help on them, so we prefer just to implement the idea then make any alterations based on your suggestions later - this works far better since you actually get to trial it in game rather than just seeing the idea.

    Not rude atall, thanks for your suggestions
    Last edited by lukew; 07-05-2012 at 14:13.
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  8. #28
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    You would definitely need to implement railroads though. They were huge military targets during the ACW because of how darn useful they were. Perhaps as a province decision that costs a significant amount of ducats? Railroads are expensive.


    They also should be available slightly prior to the ACW as they were invented earlier.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by zedyue View Post
    You would definitely need to implement railroads though. They were huge military targets during the ACW because of how darn useful they were. Perhaps as a province decision that costs a significant amount of ducats? Railroads are expensive.


    They also should be available slightly prior to the ACW as they were invented earlier.
    Something will be there to represent post-industrial infrastructure, don't worry.
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  10. #30
    If I remember correctly, one of the reasons to use the 1356 start date was because that's when the EU3 version of the HRE basically came into being. Moving the date back would mean you guys would have to model that.
    -Ruanek

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruanek View Post
    If I remember correctly, one of the reasons to use the 1356 start date was because that's when the EU3 version of the HRE basically came into being. Moving the date back would mean you guys would have to model that.
    Yes, the HRE is one of the biggest reasons why the start date probably won't go any earlier. To accurately represent it, we'd rather have to have the HRE unified at the start date or have all states of the Empire exist as vassals of the Emperor. Obviously neither of those situations will be very good for balance.

  12. #32
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    How exactly do you plan to work the Scramble for Africa? Wouldn't this require redrawing the continent's interior almost entirely?

    I'd recommend checking out the Victoria 2 forum, really. We've (collectively) been able to simulate a lot of good stuff from the 19th century by playing around with flags, modifiers, country tags, and so forth. It's more a matter of asking what you need to know about than anything.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sihulm View Post
    Those ideas don't have threads, or discussion, let alone a pledge to be in 6.0 - despite the fact that they would improve the quality of the mod much more for a much, much larger section of the playerbase. How many people are actually going to play up to 1900 / start games late in the timeframe? Run a poll, maybe, at the very least?
    We're seriously working on tonnes of stuff but it's more fun if some of it is a surprise. Anyway, please get back to the actual topic of the thread which is extending the timeline.

    Quote Originally Posted by ZomgK3tchup View Post
    How exactly do you plan to work the Scramble for Africa? Wouldn't this require redrawing the continent's interior almost entirely?

    I'd recommend checking out the Victoria 2 forum, really. We've (collectively) been able to simulate a lot of good stuff from the 19th century by playing around with flags, modifiers, country tags, and so forth. It's more a matter of asking what you need to know about than anything.
    A lot of central africa, although claimed by European nations, wasn't actually settled so I don't think we'd have to redraw all of Africa, just add quite a few new provinces.
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  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Dafool View Post
    Yes, the HRE is one of the biggest reasons why the start date probably won't go any earlier. To accurately represent it, we'd rather have to have the HRE unified at the start date or have all states of the Empire exist as vassals of the Emperor. Obviously neither of those situations will be very good for balance.
    Also, you can't really model the enormous impact of the plagues on demographics, governance, culture etc.

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  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by lukew View Post
    A lot of central africa, although claimed by European nations, wasn't actually settled so I don't think we'd have to redraw all of Africa, just add quite a few new provinces.
    Actually, I don't think we'd have to do many, if any, changes to the actual provinces. I think the more important thing is to make sure that we have events that flip the resources of African provinces to something more valuable and secondly that there be some sort of bonus for conquering parts of Africa.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sihulm View Post
    Also, you can't really model the enormous impact of the plagues on demographics, governance, culture etc.
    It can be done (I did it for AE), but it it's very difficult and doesn't work as well in other parts of the world (I tried that as well a long time back). So yes, plagues are another tough aspect to represent.

  16. #36
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    Honestly, I'd rather see a death and taxes to Vicky 2 converter.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by lukew View Post
    A lot of central africa, although claimed by European nations, wasn't actually settled so I don't think we'd have to redraw all of Africa, just add quite a few new provinces.
    The Scramble for Africa unofficially began in 1884 with the Congo Conference. The point of the conference was to not only settle border disputes based on European claims but to also resolve which country would receive the Congo territory in Central Africa.

    That's about as Central Africa as you can get, and it was one of the first territories officially resolved.

    To be honest, I'd actually suggest ending the game in 1881-4 so that you don't have to worry about the Scramble.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZomgK3tchup View Post
    The Scramble for Africa unofficially began in 1884 with the Congo Conference. The point of the conference was to not only settle border disputes based on European claims but to also resolve which country would receive the Congo territory in Central Africa.

    That's about as Central Africa as you can get, and it was one of the first territories officially resolved.

    To be honest, I'd actually suggest ending the game in 1881-4 so that you don't have to worry about the Scramble.
    ++ on that. 1900 AD is way too far into the Modern Era anyway.

    However, I'd suggest the Scramble for Africa to be implemented this way:

    Triggering Point: More than 2 European nations own colonies in Sub-Saharan Africa, 25% of Sub-Saharan Africa owned by non-Africans

    Event #1: "Riches in Africa". Tells the player that countries have been colonizing Africa and that the world is becoming aware of its resources. Sets flag "African Colonialism", which opens up conquest missions on various African tribes (to encourage A.I. to conquer Africa) and various triggered modifiers that give incentives to colonize Africa.

    Event #2: "African Expedition". It's an event that is supposed to reveal deep African provinces that would replace "wastelands". One way to keep nations from easily colonizing the deep cores of the continent would be to make this event have a MTTH of 100 years modified by innovative slider points and # of neighbouring provinces settled. A substantial investment cost can also be incurred (i.e. -5 colonists, -5 magistrate).

    Event #3: "Scramble for Africa". Fires when more than 2 European nations own provinces in Sub-Saharan Africa and 80% of Sub-Saharan Africa owned by non-Africans. Opens up events that give cores to neighbouring African provinces owned by someone else.

    If you guys plan on adding new resources, "Gems" or "Diamonds" are probably something worthwhile to add, since Africa's quite known for its diamonds in the 19th century. Randomly flipping grain/wool provinces to that after a certain tech level would be cool.

    Anyway... just throwing some ideas around... and yes, the scramble for Africa can start far earlier than the historical date, just as the colonization of the Americas.

  19. #39
    MEIOU and Taxes lukew's Avatar
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    Maybe industrialising could allow you to convert african provinces to richer trade goods, or ones you own could flip by event?
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  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by lukew View Post
    Maybe industrialising could allow you to convert african provinces to richer trade goods, or ones you own could flip by event?
    Eh? I suppose it should occur to owner by event when he reaches a certain tech modified by innovative sliders, your tech level, and local revolt risk. It is also possible to require province owners to invest a great deal to get the provinces to flip faster.

    However, the trouble is that not every African provinces have rich resources, so a decision'd have to be made on whether to follow the historical resource distribution or to add some randomness to it (but admittedly, there can still be hidden deposits that are not yet found).

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