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Thread: Suggestion: Allow Holy Wars to escalate on both sides

  1. #1
    Colonel MajorMayhem's Avatar
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    Suggestion: Allow Holy Wars to escalate on both sides

    As it stands, attacking a enemy using the Holy War CB puts the attacker at a severe disadvantage, as the defenders neighbours can dogpile them, and leading to certain defeat. At present, this is a problem in Spain, where the Catholics have, in all of my games, bashed themselves to bits trying to defeat the Iberian-Penisular-Treaty-Origanization and get swallowed by the Emirates of Spain.

    By changing it so that Holy Wars can have other nations called in on both sides allows this to balance itself out. Sure, Leon can attack Beja, but if Beja calls in Valencia, then Leon can call on France for help. This should balance out the Reconqistia, as without French or German help, the Spanish Kingdoms get gobbled up time and time again.

    Thoughts? Anyone had any experiances with Iberia that trend different?
    Machtergreifung at the nation of Paradoxia on NationStates.

  2. #2
    List Curator neondt's Avatar
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    I think an easier way of balancing holy wars would be to make the AI make note of the power of nearby nations of the same religion as their potential target, in the same way that the AI seems to be less inclined to attack you if you have strong allies. Pretty sure the newly increased difficulty of holy wars is WAD, since previously Castille or Leon could steamroll Iberia with minimal effort. Currently this works fine for the player, since we just need to be aware that same-religion neighbours will probably join in, and plan accordingly. The AI doesn't seem to have got the message however.

  3. #3
    Field Marshal Hootieleece's Avatar
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    I have played in Iberia. As Castille. Just Declared on those Moslem sheikdoms day 1. Called all my brothers to help. Married Kaiser's Bastard Sister.If you do all of these things and are patient. Holy wars in Iberia are easy. With patience I was basically able to conquer Iberia 1 Duchy at a time by 1230.You have to allow time for your levies to replenish and waiting for those first conquests to assimilate is a pain. But if you watch the enemy Allies Carefully and Holy War a target when likely defenders are busy with other wars. You should be able to attack 1 at a time.Once Holy Orders available victory is inevitable.

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    Colonel MajorMayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by neondt View Post
    I think an easier way of balancing holy wars would be to make the AI make note of the power of nearby nations of the same religion as their potential target, in the same way that the AI seems to be less inclined to attack you if you have strong allies. Pretty sure the newly increased difficulty of holy wars is WAD, since previously Castille or Leon could steamroll Iberia with minimal effort. Currently this works fine for the player, since we just need to be aware that same-religion neighbours will probably join in, and plan accordingly. The AI doesn't seem to have got the message however.
    Some sort of boost to Catholic Iberian Holy Wars is needed, because they persist in trying to expand via Holy Wars, get slaughtered and then stomped by Muslim counter-offensive Holy Wars. Perhaps a limit on the number of nations you can call in to a Holy War? 2-3 should suffice, I think.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hootieleece View Post
    I have played in Iberia. As Castille. Just Declared on those Moslem sheikdoms day 1. Called all my brothers to help. Married Kaiser's Bastard Sister.If you do all of these things and are patient. Holy wars in Iberia are easy. With patience I was basically able to conquer Iberia 1 Duchy at a time by 1230.You have to allow time for your levies to replenish and waiting for those first conquests to assimilate is a pain. But if you watch the enemy Allies Carefully and Holy War a target when likely defenders are busy with other wars. You should be able to attack 1 at a time.Once Holy Orders available victory is inevitable.
    The problem is that the AI lacks your ability to wait and plan for the right moment. It gets into a Holy War, loses all its troops trying to fight 5 Emirs, and then starts to lose land when the Emirs counter-attack.
    Machtergreifung at the nation of Paradoxia on NationStates.

  5. #5
    I don't think it's unbalanced, really. If the AI is unlucky enough to be dog piled by a badly chosen holy war, what do they lose? A few years of levies at most, which is just a more severe version of what they would lose white peaceing after an unsuccessful holy war.
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  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by MajorMayhem View Post
    By changing it so that Holy Wars can have other nations called in on both sides allows this to balance itself out.
    It wouldn't balance itself out. It would make catholics steamroll Spain within 50 years. As soon as France or, god forbid, HRE joins in, there's nothing the muslims can do.

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    Colonel MajorMayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chalkface View Post
    I don't think it's unbalanced, really. If the AI is unlucky enough to be dog piled by a badly chosen holy war, what do they lose? A few years of levies at most, which is just a more severe version of what they would lose white peaceing after an unsuccessful holy war.
    The problem I see though, is that those lost levies lead to them getting kerb-stomped by the muslims in the years following their defeat. The catholics get quickly over-run in defensive wars, meaning they can only depend on other catholic nations to prevent defeat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Julyan View Post
    It wouldn't balance itself out. It would make catholics steamroll Spain within 50 years. As soon as France or, god forbid, HRE joins in, there's nothing the muslims can do.
    Opposed to the Muslims steamrolling Spain within 50 years? A hard-limit would prevent this, perhaps in offensive Holy Wars nations can only call in 2 other duchies or a kingdom, so to prevent overwhelming German uber-stacks. IRL the Reconqustia had support from other European nations to actively attack the muslims, which currently doesn't really happen, it is all defensive in nature.
    Machtergreifung at the nation of Paradoxia on NationStates.

  8. #8
    The Muslim nations are less inclined to utterly destroy the Jinema Kingdoms if they didn't constantly leave themselves exposed fighting each other. Castille and Leon almost never do anything but try and dog pile Galicia or each other when the game starts. The Jinema Brothers should get a bonus to relations with each other so they are more inclined to plot to steal the kingdoms over just openly setting northern Spain on fire for a duchy-kingdom they will loose not long after against Beja or Sevilla.

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    Colonel MajorMayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dragoon9105 View Post
    The Muslim nations are less inclined to utterly destroy the Jinema Kingdoms if they didn't constantly leave themselves exposed fighting each other. Castille and Leon almost never do anything but try and dog pile Galicia or each other when the game starts. The Jinema Brothers should get a bonus to relations with each other so they are more inclined to plot to steal the kingdoms over just openly setting northern Spain on fire for a duchy-kingdom they will loose not long after against Beja or Sevilla.

    It may even be worthwhile to remove the mutual claims they have on each other, but that would kill off the fun. The relations bonus for "Same Dynasty should be higher regardless, as a game wide thing. Sure, you want to gain a kingdom, but do you really want to bump off the brother you got on so well with?
    Machtergreifung at the nation of Paradoxia on NationStates.

  10. #10
    Duke of Middle Italy Tempestra's Avatar
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    Historically, the Iberian Kingdoms did fight a lot, so I don't think that's necessarily the problem - the problem is that any weakness is treated like blood in the water by the Muslims, who historically were not that keen on completing the conquest of Iberia, at least not in 1066.

  11. #11
    making the muslims more inclined to fight each other might help. Since Iberia is a border region between religions it doesn't stray to far to have some civil unrest (Like Catholic and heretical movements showing up in Muslim provinces) happen in the Muslim Emirates to keep them rather weak internally. so they are less inclined to dogpile the Jinema brothers one at a time.

    Problem is the Player generally wont have trouble Uniting Iberia, The computer just really needs help surviving until holy orders show up.

  12. #12
    I have to agree with dragoon.

    Maybe a 2 duchy limit on call to holy war would be a good thing too.

  13. #13
    A few screenshots from me (click on the pictures to enlarge, note that pictures are quite heavy, around 6MB each).

    Nations and religions in Iberia:



    Nations and religions in Rus:



    Nations and religions in Middle East:



    Note on some of nations: Aragon was part of the Holy Roman Empire once, now it's an independent state. All the other states are at war for their independence with at least three being close (near 75% warscore) to obtain independence. Scotland is in fact House the Blois patrimonially married into House Dunkeld (their last King had three daughters and no sons), not sure why the Queen of Scotland has agreed. Now the Blois use title of Kings of Scotlands as their primary title.

    As you can see Iberia lost some ground but seems to be stable now. I was able to defend against combined forces of Mauretania, Egypt and Rum and then thought that it's time for the reconquista of Sicily (lost some years ago when I was figthing over the throne of Sicily itself) from the hands of the Sunni. It was close war as all Sunni rulers started to join Holy War and Mauretanians were on the move (some already landed in Sicily when the war was over). The Ilkhanate and the Golden Horde are both Sunni now, meaning that any future wars with the Egypt or Rum will be much harder, even if I'll claim the Roman Empire as my own (I play as Bulgaria). It's interesting setting I have to say.

  14. #14
    I got pretty angry this one game where I was Novgorod and Sweden kept expanding so easily by Holy Wars on Pagan nations in the Baltics and Finland... they used Holy War casus belli on nation after nation with no reprecussions... no huge war happened, no other pagans came to defend them. However, the second I, NOVGOROD, declare war on a nation.. instantly all of Finland is on me and I was forced to surrender. Why didn't they do that to Sweden!?
    All generalizations are false.

  15. #15
    If they like the swedish ruler more than they do the victim (which they very well might) they wont join the war. If they are scared of Sweden (And since sweden is a Kingdom they very well might be) they wont join.

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