+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 32

Thread: Outrageous Diplomacy

  1. #1
    LLC tonkatoy5's Avatar
    Crusader Kings IIEU3 CompleteDivine WindHeir to the ThroneMagicka
    March of the EaglesSengokuVictoria 2Victoria II: A House DividedVictoria II: Heart of Darkness
    Mount & Blade: WarbandWarlock: Master of the ArcaneMount & Blade: With Fire and SwordWar of the RosesCK2: Holy Knight
    500k clubEuropa Universalis IVWarlock 2: The Exiled

    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    the cardboard box right next to the crack addicts
    Posts
    358
    Blog Entries
    1

    Outrageous Diplomacy

    Yeah I noticed this when I was playing the demo and discovered the rat guy about 20 turns in, I had purposely put him off so I wouldn't have to deal with him, so for fun I decided to give peace a try and went to the diplomacy options, 600 gold, and 200 magic pretty much everything I own for non-aggression pact, and while scouting a tad bit more I discovered he had only two cities, to my 6, so??? shouldn't he be paying me? Oh and I tried demanding something from him he had 35 gold total, and 13 magic, so yeah quite the powerhouse. I'm not saying make the ai accept stupid offers, but come on I would say that 90 gold would have been fairer, because I steamrolled them at turn 33, after they declared war on me at turn 22 possibly another little issue.
    "Damn you and your serendipitious incompetence tonkatoy5!" ~Marty99

    "Tonka you are shining example for this village, your sherlock homes like instincts are legendary....." ~THE_SPLIT

    "Let it never again be said that tonkatoy5 is an incompetent fool who would get better results mashing the keyboard with his face than his normal play. This guy knows what he's doing." ~Marty99

    Frequent Werewolf Player

  2. #2
    I was steamrolling him and took all his cities and surrounded his capital then went to diplomacy to make peace thinking he'd offer me everything he had to survive.

    No...

    He wanted ME to pay HIM for peace?!?!!

    So I just took his capital next turn. Don't know if different AI's have different diplomacy personalities, or if it was dumbed down for the demo but it does seem broken at the moment

  3. #3
    I know of no game that has deliberately dumbed down AI in its demo. There's always the possibility, after all, that somebody will figure this is just how the AI in the final game will act.

  4. #4
    Second Lieutenant GeneralGonzo's Avatar
    MagickaMajesty 2Warlock: Master of the Arcane

    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    114
    After all you were discussing with a Rat !! What did you expect ?

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Bertouch View Post
    I know of no game that has deliberately dumbed down AI in its demo. There's always the possibility, after all, that somebody will figure this is just how the AI in the final game will act.
    Whilst not dumbed down it is known (to those that watched the live stream) that a major AI upgrade was due the day after the stream/demo release. Though the thread around here suggests Steam were slack in getting it out to people!

  6. #6
    Un Canadien Errant Featauril's Avatar
    Cities in MotionCrusader Kings IIEuropa Universalis 3Divine WindHearts of Iron III
    Europa Universalis III: In NomineMarch of the EaglesEU3 Napoleon's AmbitionEuropa Universalis: RomeSengoku
    Victoria 2Victoria II: A House DividedVictoria II: Heart of DarknessEuropa Universalis IV

    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
    Posts
    2,317
    I know that the lich king offered me everything he had for peace a few times. Had to keep shutting him up while I finished killing him.

    Drilled Rangers with Silver Arrows made short work of the vampires, and those are the only real scary units they have.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by targetbsp View Post
    Whilst not dumbed down it is known (to those that watched the live stream) that a major AI upgrade was due the day after the stream/demo release. Though the thread around here suggests Steam were slack in getting it out to people!
    No patch ever arrived to us, which would be a record for Steam in lateness, if a patch was ever sent to them.

  8. #8
    Demos are almost never patched....

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Astasia View Post
    Demos are almost never patched....
    No, but a patch to the late beta was announced for late last week. As the patch never arrived, we can assume the AI work wasn't finished--my point being that would explain why the AI in the demo isn't as good as hoped.

    In any case, the final product should be here early next week.

  10. #10
    Oh, I thought you were thinking the demo would have been patched with it.

    Anyway maybe they were talking about an internal beta. Games these days tend to have a release day patch full of fixes never tested in the public beta, they just keep working on them even as they are going out the door. Probably not a good sign anyway, game probably isn't quite ready yet, but hopefully it's nothing a few patches can't hurt and not another Sword of the Stars II.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Bertouch View Post
    No, but a patch to the late beta was announced for late last week. As the patch never arrived, we can assume the AI work wasn't finished--my point being that would explain why the AI in the demo isn't as good as hoped.

    In any case, the final product should be here early next week.
    Well actually the patch did arrive, but something was wrong with it. Once patched I could not play. I assume they reverted so we could continue playing. Anyways it won't be long and the final version will be out. The only thing I am worried about now is I can still play the IGN beta and Steam says I already own Warlock so I hope this doesn't screw up my retail key when I get it.

  12. #12
    Well that is interesting, Steam just downloaded a patch for Warlock. Off to play.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by hadberz View Post
    Well actually the patch did arrive, but something was wrong with it. Once patched I could not play. I assume they reverted so we could continue playing. Anyways it won't be long and the final version will be out. The only thing I am worried about now is I can still play the IGN beta and Steam says I already own Warlock so I hope this doesn't screw up my retail key when I get it.
    That was the patch before the video session on TwitchTV in which a patch was mentioned, though. Something around last Wednesday. The patch that was actually announced was supposed to appear last Friday, or this Monday.

    But yes, one is downloading, now. Would be nice to know what's changed, but I'll be checking it out at once.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by tonkatoy5 View Post
    Yeah I noticed this when I was playing the demo and discovered the rat guy about 20 turns in, I had purposely put him off so I wouldn't have to deal with him, so for fun I decided to give peace a try and went to the diplomacy options, 600 gold, and 200 magic pretty much everything I own for non-aggression pact, and while scouting a tad bit more I discovered he had only two cities, to my 6, so??? shouldn't he be paying me?
    Well, no offence, but in some Paradox games OPM AI still demands from you all of your gold for peace while you are steamrolling his ally. So I wouldn't expect fix for that anytime soon. Just ignore and crush them all.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by gliomarto View Post
    Well, no offence, but in some Paradox games OPM AI still demands from you all of your gold for peace while you are steamrolling his ally. So I wouldn't expect fix for that anytime soon. Just ignore and crush them all.
    Seems odd they make so many diplomacy based games if they can't do diplomacy AI...

    Would be a shame as a CivV fantasy mod would probably be able to beat Warlock if the AI stays in it's demo state

  16. #16
    This isn't developed by Paradox, and probably neither are most of the games you two are thinking of.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by dd790 View Post
    Seems odd they make so many diplomacy based games if they can't do diplomacy AI...

    Would be a shame as a CivV fantasy mod would probably be able to beat Warlock if the AI stays in it's demo state
    As someone who's spent over 750 hours in Civ 5 according to steam... "lol". Civ 5 is a fantastic game but the AI is in no way any better than Warlock.

    Diplomacy always has been a joke in these games because we simply dont have the processing power in our computers to run super complex and authentic AI algorithms to the point of reproducing complex human thought and reactions. You can never make them all happy while having any sense of self-interest (which makes sense because the computer opponents are trying to win too). At the end of the day while not great the ai in warlock is pretty much par for the course.

  18. #18
    Chris Crawford's 1987 Trust & Betrayal used an image-based language for players, AI and human, to convey degrees of positive and negative feeling, leading to alliances and wars--and it still works well. So did the AI rules set in Civ IV that made the reasons for an AI opponent's decisions transparent to the human player. (Removing this in Civ V was a dumb move, or would have been, if the diplomacy rules set wasn't so badly designed that I suspect they didn't want anybody seeing how it worked.) It's not the processing power that determines its success/failure, but the scope diplomacy handles, the factors involved, and how much time you're willing to spend writing conditional statements. I did that once for a project in a big MMO game where I worked for a few years--and it's a tiresome grind. No wonder the head of Stardock who does the AI is legendary for having to be locked in a room to get it done.

  19. #19
    Bertouch,

    My point was that if you want an authentic real to life human AI you wont get it. Its not that there isnt enough skilled manpower who COULD write the code its that it would be a gigantic waste of processing power when as you just said properly written conditional code works relatively well. Even still in the example given by tonka he sought peace with with the a computer player who just watched his ally get erased and was suprised when the computer controlled player wanted payment for his transgressions.

    If im being honest its actually a pretty human like response. People are largely governed by their flight of fight responses. If a person is predisposed to fight over flight they wont eagerly give away their property just to get back to that peaceful state.

    I know it often seems shocking from our perspective when the computer wont accept our terms but just because its difficult to understand doesnt mean its not a realistic approach.

    Im sure Germany was totally shocked when in spite of their best efforts to not involve the US in ww2 we stuck out noses in anyway even though it looked like germany would continue holding their iron grip on europe with an inevitable conquest of England. Im sure they couldnt understand why we would stick out noses into that conflict but from our (the allies) perspective we had to fight there was no other option whether we liked it or not. We as people dont always seek to avoid conflict, we sometimes just seek to WIN it.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Munkles View Post
    Bertouch,

    My point was that if you want an authentic real to life human AI you wont get it. Its not that there isnt enough skilled manpower who COULD write the code its that it would be a gigantic waste of processing power when as you just said properly written conditional code works relatively well.
    Complete agreement. There's nothing like that, and given the complexity of underlying value judgements formed over long ranges of time that affect decision-making in us humans, I strongly suspect there won't be for quite a long time. If ever.

    Rules-based AI can fool people into thinking it's real. I remember when Oblivion first appeared, and some players were insisting that yes, NPCs could actually develop original responses based on in-game stimulae to change behavior patterns. When I pointed out that they're simply following a rules set, I was told I didn't know anything about it. When I pointed out that I'd worked for an MMO where we tried to create some of those rules, and the more specific the rules, the more it looked human, I was told I didn't know a thing about Bethsoft. Of course, when it finally became apparent that these were rules, and you could create scripts around them, these people just suddenly went silent. At least, in that forum. They were probably spreading joy elsewhere.

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts