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Thread: Balancing: City rush (& later Modding discussion)

  1. #41
    Second Lieutenant PawelS's Avatar

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    If it's possible to make a Warlock mod that limits the number of cities, that would be great! But I suppose the modding capabilities will be very limited (if any), at least for some time after release. But I'd really like to see games where there are large wild, unsettled areas even in late game... I hope someday my dream will come true...

  2. #42
    My suggestion for balancing:
    1. Settlers are built like building rather than units. Upon completion city loses population.
    2. City population growth depends on city size. City with 1000 inhabitants takes much longer to grow to 2000 than 6000-size needs to grow to 7000. At some time the trend must reverse, for example level 20 city should not grow fast.
    3. Improve bonuses from smithy and other such buildings so that small number of units coming from large cities can be superior to large number of inferior units from small towns.
    Last edited by muxecoid; 05-05-2012 at 19:32. Reason: spelling
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  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by PawelS View Post
    If it's possible to make a Warlock mod that limits the number of cities, that would be great! But I suppose the modding capabilities will be very limited (if any), at least for some time after release. But I'd really like to see games where there are large wild, unsettled areas even in late game... I hope someday my dream will come true...
    I like how cities work right now, so agree that a mod would probably be the best course of action. I would think the other worlds would solve the problem of large unsettled areas. We just need a conquest only victory option so the game can last longer.

  4. #44
    In this thread it has went unnoticed that cities growth decreases about 2 people per every turn. Larger cities take very many turns to grow and the growth might even cease (haven’t played that far). A level 10 city takes about 14 turns to grow?

    If you have 10 cities with 10 people then there are turns when you don’t have to manage even a single city. With 40 cities that’s still under three city actions per turn. I wouldn’t call that tedious. At least when compared to that you have tens of units which you have to manage at every turn.

    It’s also unwise to spam cities for the various reasons already mentioned in this thread. Though it's still sensible to build a city whenever a feasible location is available. Which is all well and good: a city is supposed to be a good thing.

  5. #45
    Second Lieutenant PawelS's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by hadberz
    I would think the other worlds would solve the problem of large unsettled areas.
    Judging from the demo, the other worlds are kind of "pocket worlds" - they are smaller than the main world, and have only one entrance (unlike Myrror in MoM, which is as big as the "normal" world, and has many entrances). So the player who holds the entrance can claim the entire world for himself, if he has an army good enough to eradicate the monsters, and then spam cities there normally. This is not what I meant by "large unsettled areas", it's just another example of the main principle: after you kill all monsters in an area, send settlers there as soon as possible. With a limit on number of cities you could send units to a wild area to fight the monsters and get experience and loot, but without the intention to claim all the land for urban areas. A good idea in such case would be making new monster lairs appear in such areas (with a minimum distance to nearest city or something like that), so these areas would spawn new monsters through the entire game (something like Barbarians in Civ games).

    The cost of founding a new city is very small in this game - only 50 gold to build a settler and a small amount of food and gold to upkeep it for some turns. Lost production capabilities of the city aren't very important, because most of the time you don't produce any units in most cities. But I don't think increasing the cost of settlers or something like that is a good idea - it will just force the players to sacrifice large amounts of resources for expansion purposes, while I prefer a game where you can develop your cities normally, without worrying too much about keeping a good speed of expansion. So I think the best solution would be to introduce a limit on number of cities that slowly grows over time, and don't allow producing settlers when you have reached the limit. Conquering enemy cities is another problem, perhaps when you conquer the limit can be a little higher, but if you're above it, you have to raze all cities you conquer.

    I realize that most people won't like this idea, but I think it's a good idea for a mod, doable if only Warlock has such modding capabilities as Civ4 or Civ5. I made such mod for Civ4 for personal use, and now I'm working on a Civ5 mod which uses the happiness system for this purpose (in unmodded Civ5 happiness mostly limits the total population of cities rather than their number).

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Tayran View Post
    3. Limit the constrution of settler to for example +size 5 cities or the city requires a special building.
    That's already in the game. However with ICS (Infinite City Scrawl as it was known in Civ5) you probably not moving far from a big city to place your new city

    I think this game already combats this a little by having buildings require tiles, if you build a new city next to an existing city they are going to be using each others build space, this will deny one or both of them to advanced units as you need lots of space to build enough basic buildings to reach advanced buildings.

    Also cities on this game seem very weak (compared to Civ5) so a new city is always at risk. I had a set of veterans with City Attack and a few perks and they could take a level 1 city in 1 move.

    Maybe having health penalties for the proximity of other cities of your empire would help, making cities easier to capture if you ICS.

    EDIT: Think I have just replied to page 1 on page 3

  7. #47
    You can say "make a mod" to almost any suggestion, it's not really a serious response. If you are trying to please everyone a new game mode would be more acceptable, tick a checkbox before starting a game for example to turn on (or off, depending on the default) some sort of soft or hard limit on city numbers.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Astasia View Post
    You can say "make a mod" to almost any suggestion, it's not really a serious response. If you are trying to please everyone a new game mode would be more acceptable, tick a checkbox before starting a game for example to turn on (or off, depending on the default) some sort of soft or hard limit on city numbers.
    Well that might be the best you can hope for; the game is only 20 bucks after all. Even if the number of cities are limited that doesn't really address the city rush. In fact I really don't see city rush as a issue until selectable victory conditions are in the game. My last game was over with before managing cites became tiresome; although, I do enjoy managing them. I would be surprised if the dev release any new features in a patch, besides multiplayer. I do hope they will release expansions and DLC. Perhaps we will get options such as selectable victory conditions, city limits, etc. in them.

    I would like to see Hero units. I suppose Champions could be considered Hero units. I would also like to see artifacts that can be found to increase units powers. I hope this game sells well enough that more DLC and expansions are produced.

    The game as is I think is perfect for multiplayer, especially on small maps. If they add PBEM that would be fantastic for huge maps.

  9. #49
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    Astasia
    ^^^
    Thats just semantics at this point the game comes out in just a few days it will always amount to being a mod even if it is the development team that creates it. unless it is a limit patched into the game without an option to be turned off something i think we all agree at this point we dont want Lol.

    Well lets get the ball rolling for you guys who want this system someone push a black file with this thread in it to the devs as long as we agree it should be optional. May as well ask for the optional victory conditions at the same time just incase there not already in the game and hope it wont interfere with them working the multiplayer aspect out.

    Maybe we can wrap this up now there is some great idea's here for the devs or mod makers to work with lets not make this thread into something people leave for weekend reading Lol
    Last edited by Raxe; 06-05-2012 at 01:52. Reason: Text wall
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  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Astasia View Post
    You can say "make a mod" to almost any suggestion, it's not really a serious response. If you are trying to please everyone a new game mode would be more acceptable, tick a checkbox before starting a game for example to turn on (or off, depending on the default) some sort of soft or hard limit on city numbers.
    I'm pretty sure this is a moot point anyway as modding will not be allowed (initially, at least, but since I am a something of a pessimist I do not think it will ever be available). See this interview for confirmation.
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  11. #51
    They should be honest and state they refuse modding (the goal is obvious : selling more DLC) instead of accuse the engine.

  12. #52
    Mwahahahahaha s1234567890m's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by saroumana View Post
    They should be honest and state they refuse modding (the goal is obvious : selling more DLC) instead of accuse the engine.
    Im not sure i follow your logic, feel free to elaborate?
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  13. #53
    Yeah right. They have crypted the ressource pack file to block modding, like in some majesty 2 expansion. So it's intentional.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by dd790 View Post
    Also cities on this game seem very weak (compared to Civ5) so a new city is always at risk. I had a set of veterans with City Attack and a few perks and they could take a level 1 city in 1 move.

    Maybe having health penalties for the proximity of other cities of your empire would help, making cities easier to capture if you ICS.

    EDIT: Think I have just replied to page 1 on page 3
    Man, cities both here and in CivV are too strong, compared to good ol' cities of previous Civs, where you had to actually put some army to protect a city.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by saroumana View Post
    Yeah right. They have crypted the ressource pack file to block modding, like in some majesty 2 expansion. So it's intentional.
    Seems strange in this age to block modding. If you look at all the great games out there one of the aspect that make them great is modding. Especially when it comes to paradox games. I can list many games that I would not have bought if it wasnt for the prospect of modding: EU3, Civ V, skyrim etc.
    Blocking modding encourages piracy. Encouraging modding is the basis of a loyal PAYING fanbase. I find i very odd that a company affiliated with paradox would not know this.
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  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tayran View Post
    .... Encouraging modding is the basis of a loyal PAYING fanbase. ...
    We can only ask that "they" change their minds.
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  17. #57
    Mwahahahahaha s1234567890m's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tayran View Post
    Seems strange in this age to block modding. If you look at all the great games out there one of the aspect that make them great is modding. Especially when it comes to paradox games. I can list many games that I would not have bought if it wasnt for the prospect of modding: EU3, Civ V, skyrim etc.
    Blocking modding encourages piracy. Encouraging modding is the basis of a loyal PAYING fanbase. I find i very odd that a company affiliated with paradox would not know this.
    Im just putting it out there... it might sound left field but shouldnt we try with the release version... and not the demo/beta?
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  18. #58
    Colonel Tayran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2Coats View Post
    We can only ask that "they" change their minds.
    I hope they change their minds. I have preordered the game but I think that I will be very reluctant to buy any expansions etc if I will have no possibility to mod the game myself or at least play other peoples mods. How many of us play vanilla EU3? I would have abandoned that game after a few months and never bought any expansions if I wouldnt be able to play great mods like terra nova or magna mundi.
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  19. #59
    Colonel Tayran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by s1234567890m View Post
    Im just putting it out there... it might sound left field but shouldnt we try with the release version... and not the demo/beta?
    Of course, I have already preordeded it and Im looking forward to play the "real" game. And if its as good a the demo Im sure I will enjoy it.... For some time. There are only so many ways you can play a game until you need mods to make it re-playable. I have yet to encounter a strategy game that doesnt follow this pattern.
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  20. #60
    Mwahahahahaha s1234567890m's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tayran View Post
    Of course, I have already preordeded it and Im looking forward to play the "real" game. And if its as good a the demo Im sure I will enjoy it.... For some time. There are only so many ways you can play a game until you need mods to make it re-playable. I have yet to encounter a strategy game that doesnt follow this pattern.
    i ment modability not enjoyment btw
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