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Thread: De jure Holy Roman Empire

  1. #1
    KING OF PIE ilikepie's Avatar
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    De jure Holy Roman Empire

    Why isn't the kingdom of Burgundy and Italy in the HRE anymore? Now in all my games they immediately gain independence and keep it within 50 years. Why the change?

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    Field Marshal Garak's Avatar
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    They've never been de jure parts of the empire.

  3. #3
    Modding Paladin RedRooster81's Avatar
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    Garak's right. You better create the titles if you're HRE (the AI won't AFAIK). Of course it's historical for them to drift away. Optimally, the Italian dukes could declare for the Pope and the Burgundians wander off.

  4. #4
    Imperial Vicar of the HRE Ruwaard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garak View Post
    They've never been de jure parts of the empire.
    They were, but these kingdoms upto now weren't a de jure part of the HRE in CK2.

    A major reason to exclude these kingdoms, is that German nobles and the ruler of Bohemia elected the king of the Romans/German King, not Burgundian and Italian nobles, which kingdoms were attached to the German kingdom.

  5. #5
    Regent-Custodian of the Light riknap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruwaard View Post
    They were, but these kingdoms upto now weren't a part of the HRE in CK2.
    you sure you don't mean de facto?
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    Imperial Vicar of the HRE Ruwaard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by riknap View Post
    you sure you don't mean de facto?
    In game they are a de facto part, historically they were de jure parts of the HRE.

  7. #7
    Imperial Vicar of the HRE Ruwaard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedRooster81 View Post
    Garak's right. You better create the titles if you're HRE (the AI won't AFAIK). Of course it's historical for them to drift away. Optimally, the Italian dukes could declare for the Pope and the Burgundians wander off.
    That depends on the desired level of ''sandboxness'', one likes to have in their games.

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    Committed Anti-P'doxian Sleight of Hand's Avatar
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    Burgundy, Lotharingia and Italy should obviously be part of the Empire.
    Yeah, well... sometimes nothin' can be a real cool hand.

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    KING OF PIE ilikepie's Avatar
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    The dukes of holland never elected HRE, but they're still in it... so yeah.

  10. #10
    Of course they should (and WERE) de facto part of the Empire. This is 1066, not 1648.

    Whether or not they should also be De Jure part of the HRE from the start is more debatable, though.

  11. #11
    Field Marshal Garak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruwaard View Post
    They were, but these kingdoms upto now weren't a de jure part of the HRE in CK2.

    A major reason to exclude these kingdoms, is that German nobles and the ruler of Bohemia elected the king of the Romans/German King, not Burgundian and Italian nobles, which kingdoms were attached to the German kingdom.
    Yes, I was talking about the game. I thought we were talking about the game mechanics, not the actual history.

  12. #12
    Imperial Vicar of the HRE Ruwaard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ilikepie View Post
    The dukes of holland never elected HRE, but they're still in it... so yeah.
    That's not entirely true, at least one count of Holland was elected (anti) king of the Romans; and in the early period of the HRE all imperial princes (Reichsfürsten) were allowed to elect the monarch, but eventually a small group (predecessors of the later prince-electors) made a pre-selection. Direct vassals of the empire, like the duke of Lower Lorraine and the landgraves of Brabant (later duke) and Gelre (eventually also a duke) did initially have the right to vote.

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