Plots : Too cheap and easy?

[Thunda]

I'm writing this with a "unsatisfied" feeling about myself. I've just gone from being the Duke of Lancaster to King of England through a cheap and easy plot against a King who could of probably crushed me in a fight and all because I sent him a letter!!! My God! The word truly is mightier than the sword.

Are plots such as this too cheap and easy? A King giving up his Kingdom because somebody asks him? I only had one backer .. a single county Duchess ..

Can anybody explain how "Plot Power" is calculated? Upon instigating the plot I had a 102% plot power score and it only took, as mentioned, 1 Duchess who already had a green thumbs up when I looked. How is that 102% come up with? I was in control of 5 English Counties - does that get taken into account?

I honestly feel deflated. it kind of makes you wonder why bother starting as a Count or a Duke as the game seems to be just waiting for the first opportunity to make you King by almost thrusting it down your throat when you open the Ambitions / Plot window - "here! here! Pick me! Pick ME!!!!!"

So - is "achievement" too cheap and easy through plots as they stand?

[Charybde]

I think that the problem is that, as soon complete a plot (successfully or not), you can choose another one right way. Plots should take time to establish, so a limit of say one plot every 5 years would prevent chain assassinations.

[n000b]

Strange that he just gave up like that, were you spymaster? I have yet to see my liege just lay down and accept my demands, even with alot of backers and over 100% in score he still wants to fight me. To answer your question, no i dont thing plots are too easy.

[Von Hilficker]

The real challenge comes not so much from gaining the crown...but holding onto it.

I've encountered situations where I convinced the previous king to step down. And a few weeks, months or sometimes days later he rebels to get it back. Perhaps breaks the roleplay value but at least you can be sure that even if the plot succeeds, you might very well have a fight on your hands.

[Thunda]

No - not spymaster. My character was "gifted" the Duchy when the previous King became King and then my next generation character just asked to be King and .. voila .. So from a single county DLC created Count (so therefore, no family to back me up) - to King by my 3rd generation .. and I haven't actually "done" anything to achieve that!!!

I've never had a plot fail once it's above 100% .. Similar thing happened in a previous game when I was playing in Scotland. I "struggled" as a lowly single province count for a couple of generations, became Duke of Galloway, and then, as soon as the plot to become King of Scotland (think it was Queen in that game) appeared, I press 1 button to instigate the plot and then make 1 invite and as if by magic, I'm Queen of Scotland despite 2 powerful families in Scotland at the time constantly fighting it out for the throne ..

Oh, and, in both of those instances (just to add to the silly nature of it) I never even had a claim to the throne!!!

The plots, just seem to bypass the entire idea behind the game, IMHO. Don't bother with the Assasination option that costs X amount of cash and could only succeed 1 in 3 times .. just do a plot, it's free and you know beforehand that you're going to suceed as long as you have one backer. Don't go to war with your liege over a county you want - just wait for the plot option to appear and he'll give you it as a Xmas present.

The games insistance on saying "here you go - be King" just deflates me. As I said above - whats the point of playing as a count when within a couple of generations you can just fall into becoming King? Might aswell just start the game as a King and be done with it. In those 2 examples theres no way some back-country upstart like I was would be handed the throne just because they asked for it in a written letter and then other Dukes of the land just accept it despite them having claims on the throne.

I know I'm going slightly off topic here .. .. but the snowball effect in the game is just too much. The game can be "tough" when you're a one county Count but as soon as you aquire a 2nd county through whatever means, then the future you envisaged at the start of game is done and dusted and things become way too easy - and that's even without the Plot System handing things on a plate to you.

[Charybde]

Opps I had not realized that you could plot for kingdom titles... fail.

Assassination plots are not that easy. If you want the 90% chance that the 100%gives, you'll have to bribe more than 1 backer unless you target is a slothful, envious, arbitrary moron, then it's easier

[Snaake]

Thunda: I think demanding king titles, lowering crown authority etc. "civil war" plots calculate plot power off of relative military power. So in the 1st post's case, you had at least 6 counties on your side, not counting any vassals you may have had (or your backer), which could be a lot, depending on the situation with other civil wars, etc. Hence the fast 102%. Even then, in those kind of plots, the little time that I've spent as a vassal (it is quite easy to become king if you want to, yes - I recommend trying a vassal-only "kingmaker" game sometime), it's far from a 100% chance for them to just give you what you want, anyway.

As for the case of Scotland, you specifically mention "2 powerful families in Scotland at the time constantly fighting it out for the throne..." This would *really* cramp their military strength, so if you're a decent strength duke, you get high plot power right out of the door.

I think you just got lucky that they agreed right away, instead of imprisoning you or fighting you. Not that the AI can defeat a human player that easily in war either.


P.S. In my Scotland game, I got the kingdom title in the 2nd or 3rd (can't remember) generation because the Pope basically asked me to take over from the current King (he may have been excommunicated by another duke, didn't plan for that). IIRC got a claim from that, pressed it in a war, presto!

P.P.S. Plots in general may be on the easy side to complete, yes. Has anyone looked into modding them to be harder? eg. just set a static multiplier of 0.75 into all plot power calculations or something, if that's possible?

[Steely Dwarf]

As with the re-balancing of assassination costs, I feel like people playing from the perspective of Irish Minors and Kings in general are sort of selling out counts. I don't think we need another change that really only makes it harder for people on the bottom, especially in higher levels of crown authority. No fun to rule over impotent vassals

[Kynaz]

Well in my games, the king NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER accepts the plot. I had 3 dukes and myself (a duke with 6 duchy titles) demand the French king lower CA from Absolute to High................. Nope.

Happens all the time lol. But i will tell you , the King will likely rebel for the title some day , or perhaps his heirs will. I am surprised he accepted it though with just 1 duke backing you. It almost seems like a bug.

As with the re-balancing of assassination costs, I feel like people playing from the perspective of Irish Minors and Kings in general are sort of selling out counts. I don't think we need another change that really only makes it harder for people on the bottom, especially in higher levels of crown authority. No fun to rule over impotent vassals

I pretty much agree with this. Alot of people Play the Irish counts and think thats how counts are. If you play as one in a place like France , HRE ect , its far different. You can get jammed in a landlocked area with absolute CA. Plots are the only shred of hope in being able to do anything in games like that.

[Thunda]

I dunno - maybe I've just been lucky with the "dice rolls" .. or at best, under-estimating how well I'm actually doing ..

[Emperor Leo]

Opps I had not realized that you could plot for kingdom titles... fail.

Same here. I'll have to look into this! I thought it was just the "Lower Crown Authority" plot against Kings.

[Snaake]

I dunno - maybe I've just been lucky with the "dice rolls" .. or at best, under-estimating how well I'm actually doing ..

Like I said, I think you were lucky, yes. Kings do not automatically say yes even to >100% power plots. Another thing I thought of regarding the military power-dependent plots is that... you know, early-game kings often have really small demesnes, since the AI doesn't really try to cap it very actively, unlike a player. So if plot power for these plots is then calculated off of *personal* aka. demesne military forces, one duke with a couple of full duchies will get massive plot power against them.

Kill plots can be easy too, if you happen to get one against someone whose spymaster hates them. Instant +200% plot power, or more. That doesn't mean that it's always easy or even possible to get 100% plot power for them, since your easy options to improve the opinion of courtiers in a foreign court are pretty much restricted to gifts.

[Mammoet]

I have the opposite experience in the HRE. I can hardly get people to join my plot. The Kaiser keeps raising the Crown Authority and everyone agrees like he's their best friend. I really don't understand how I'm supposed to do anything after the first 2 years, when we have Medium Crown Authority in the HRE. Everyone loves the Kaiser, or they have political concerns :/

[Thunda]

This is just getting silly ..

Upon my King dying the usual hullabaloo occurred when every vassal decided to want a piece of the throne and due to being spread to thin in an external war at the time, I actually got mullered by the treasonous scum at home and lost the throne ..

Great! Seriously! Great!

But then what? I check in the Ambition / Plot window and see "Plot : Acquire the throne" .. so I say to myself .. lets see .. I instigate the plot .. see that I have one backer to take me to about 200% plot power .. Send of a letter to the King who's been crowned for all of 1 day ... and ... Yep, he gives me the throne back that he's just won.

I'm sorry - but that is seriously borked if that's WAD. He just destroyed my armies at home with the support of 4 of the other 5 Dukes and then gives it up after 1 day after I send him another harsh letter telling him off for being a very naughty boy.

House rule : Completely ignore the plot system in CK2 ..

[Holy.Death]

What was his opinion on you? I tried to revoke County from a vassal (his only title) and he fought me tooth and nail.

I'd say that plot options are chimeric at best - I invited King of Hungary into a plot to murder one of his Dukes while I was King of Bulgaria and Sicily. With some coutrier we had... 50% plot power. Two the most powerful Kings in the region, against a single Duke, a vassal. On the other hand I was able to orchestrate an assassination plot on the powerful Sultan of Egypt, because much more courtiers disliked him. In fact it's easier to kill more powerful persons than those less powerful as they tend to have much more powerful and angry vassals than smaller courts. Other than that I am quite content with plots. They add some spice to the game.

[grumphie]

nah, i dont agree. it can be quite hard often to get suffient backup for kill plots ect. if your not too strong/rich. and its about your only hope on growing as an weak n poor count under medium+ crown authority.

[Thunda]

But doesn't it seem daft that a vassal beats you in a war one week and takes the throne and then hands it straight back the next when you tell him if he doesn't then he'll have to go to bed without any supper? He's just kicked my ass after desiring the throne for years .. what the hell is he doing handing it back immediately because I ask? Just say "NO" crazy fool and kick my ass again.

The idea behind Plots is great - but in my experience, it makes things just so darned easy for the player ... I see AI Plots sitting in my Intrigue Tab with 300% plot power and 10 backers that never get triggered even when I leave them for years .. yet I can lose a title due to war and then get it back a day or so later without doing a darned thing to achieve it. If the New King wanted to give it up so easily 'cos he was scared why go to war with me in the first place?

My Solutions :

1) Tone down the plot power %. It's crazy how one man can have over 100% individually against an entire realm the size of England and it's just a matter of finding a mug to say "yeah, alright".

2) Make "deals" with backers before they agree to back you. Just sending them money in the hope of raising their opinion is silly. Have them say : Promise to grant me the title Duke of York when your on the throne and I'll back you - if you renage, I'll knack ya and burn yer gerbils

3) Have a timer both between choosing of plots and a "cool down" timer ie, if you lose the throne start any Plot Powers to recover it at a -200% penalty and then each month the penalty lessens.

[Peter Ebbesen]

Thunda, if you haven't already, I suggest you report this issue in the bug forum with an appropriate header (e.g. "Too easy to become king via plot")

[grumphie]

maybe king is easy. i dont have any expiernience with that. but kill plotas are quite hard to get to 100%+ without showering the court with gifts IF you can even find enough that dont like the target enough.

[Thunda]

Thunda, if you haven't already, I suggest you report this issue in the bug forum with an appropriate header (e.g. "Too easy to become king via plot")

Thing is - I dont think it IS a bug .. I think it's more an inherint flaw in the plot system as a whole. No matter the game (and I've played loads the last 6 weeks) - Plots are just way way way way too easy (in my experience) to achieve things with. I've not had a single one fail out of the 100s I've instigated once I've had a backer - and I've only ever waited a short amount of time to get a backer.

In the game I'm taking about above - I plotted for a duchy within a year starting as a single county DLC created Count - was granted it. Within 2 generations (30 years as the second generation died young) - I plotted for the throne having only a couple of counties behind me - and was handed it no questions asked. I lost the throne due to war and was then handed it back immediately. Add into that a few assisinations along the way .. and I've become the King of England - twice - without actually doing anything "in game" to achieve it. Oh, throw in the mix that the pope called a crusade - I sending some troops over, taking one castle before getting wiped out by a random Muslim Doomstack but somehow finding myself as the highest contributor (despite the pope having took 6 counties - work that one out) - and I become the King of Egypt ..

And I'm left sitting here thinking : Hang on - what the hell have I actually done?? Nothing! The game has just handed all this to me on a plate.

Ok - maybe I've just been hit with the extreme Lucky Stick in all the games I've played, but its the same story every time. I'm left with no sense of achievement.