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Thread: Personal Union with a country that already has personal unions

  1. #1

    Personal Union with a country that already has personal unions

    So the Palatinate leads a personal union with Austria, France, Oldenberg, and some other minors. It is ridiculous to be quite frank. So I claimed their throne and formed a personal union that I now lead with the Palatinate. So how can their deposed king still rule all those other countries? If I am king of Palatinate and palatinate's kinq was king of France et al, why am I not king of everyone? What if I vassalize instead?

  2. #2
    you have claimed the throne of Duke of Palatinate, however Duke of Palatinate also held titles of King of France, King of Austria and Count of Oldenburg. You took Palatinate from him, but he still holds other titles.

  3. #3
    Exactly. Think about it. A Personal Union doesn't mean that they are subjects to the other nations - it means that the King also holds the Throne of the other Nations. So, when you took the land of his ancestors from him, he just fled to one of the other nations and is ruling from there now. At least that's the theory of how it would have worked in Real Life.

    The real question is... how the heck does the GAME handle the whole thing about inheriting, etc now?

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by telegraph View Post
    you have claimed the throne of Duke of Palatinate, however Duke of Palatinate also held titles of King of France, King of Austria and Count of Oldenburg. You took Palatinate from him, but he still holds other titles.
    Well, that's true. However, by claiming the throne of a county, you should probably claim the thrones of all the other ones it's PUed, simply because the king is the same for every single one of them and so is his family status. When the palatinate was left without a legitimate heir, so was france and so on and so forth. Your dynastic ties with the last legitimate ruler make you his legitimate heir and therefore you should also get the thrones of every county he had PUed; the same person can't have different heirs for every single one of his titles (unless we're talking gavelkind, but that's a different situation altogether). By forming a PU, you essentially succeed the last ruler and should therefore get all his titles, since your ties are to *him* and not to a specific *nation*. That's how I see it anyways.

  5. #5
    Like earlier users say. Personal Union mean one person who rule two separate kingdoms. Because real union in game is set as inheriting other country lands.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by moldeh View Post
    Well, that's true. However, by claiming the throne of a county, you should probably claim the thrones of all the other ones it's PUed, simply because the king is the same for every single one of them and so is his family status. When the palatinate was left without a legitimate heir, so was france and so on and so forth. Your dynastic ties with the last legitimate ruler make you his legitimate heir and therefore you should also get the thrones of every county he had PUed; the same person can't have different heirs for every single one of his titles (unless we're talking gavelkind, but that's a different situation altogether). By forming a PU, you essentially succeed the last ruler and should therefore get all his titles, since your ties are to *him* and not to a specific *nation*. That's how I see it anyways.
    This is true, one still has to defeat all the other kingdoms as well, like if I want to PU Denmark early game, I have to occupy Sweden and Norway as well, but I only get a PU with Denmark. (Though I remember those countries getting new monarchs as well...so not sure about this thread..could be a bug.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Drattius View Post
    Like earlier users say. Personal Union mean one person who rule two separate kingdoms. Because real union in game is set as inheriting other country lands.
    One still has to defeat both the kingdoms =P

  8. #8
    I had a PU with hungary or someone that had a few minors around them in a PU. When my leader died hungary inherited these minors but I didn't inherit hungary. When my next monarch died I inherited the big hungary.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by moldeh View Post
    the same person can't have different heirs for every single one of his titles
    But you haven't legaly inherited him, you forced him to retire immediatly and give that one Throne you kinda-sorta have claims on to you. If that happened to me, you can be damn sure I'd retreat to some of my possessions that you haven't defeated yet and don't have a legal claim to, to plot how to get it all back.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Pjstaab View Post
    I had a PU with hungary or someone that had a few minors around them in a PU. When my leader died hungary inherited these minors but I didn't inherit hungary. When my next monarch died I inherited the big hungary.
    Sounds buggy.

    I once claimed Aragons throne and started a succession war, during this war Burgundy got a PU with Aragon (maybe someone should change it so PUs can't be created during succession wars).

    So, Aragon was in PU with Burgundy, I won the war, and forced my claim. Then after that Burgundys monarch was still the leader, but it said that when Burgundys king died, I would inherit Aragon, so when Burgundys king died, I got the crown of Aragon >_>.

    I can't remember if I could ally myself to Aragon or not.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Chronicler View Post
    Sounds buggy.

    I once claimed Aragons throne and started a succession war, during this war Burgundy got a PU with Aragon (maybe someone should change it so PUs can't be created during succession wars).

    So, Aragon was in PU with Burgundy, I won the war, and forced my claim. Then after that Burgundys monarch was still the leader, but it said that when Burgundys king died, I would inherit Aragon, so when Burgundys king died, I got the crown of Aragon >_>.

    I can't remember if I could ally myself to Aragon or not.
    I was forcing a PU on someone when they got PU'd by ruler death to someone else. I couldn't force a PU afterwards.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Pjstaab View Post
    I was forcing a PU on someone when they got PU'd by ruler death to someone else. I couldn't force a PU afterwards.
    I could, that probably means I'm cooler than you.

  13. #13
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    I had a case where one of my allies got force-PU'd by a country while I was trying to do it to them. Another case where three AI countries did it. Eventually, in both cases, the first country inherited the (second) country they were trying to force, and it set the third country free (they hadn't been inherited yet, but were shown as a junior PU to the country that was inherited.)

    In one case, I was playing England and the chain was Castile-Aragon-Brittany. In the other case, it was Brandenburg-Pommerania-Mecklenburg. Brittany and Mecklenbug both got set free upon inheritance (of Aragon and Pommerania).

    I wondered what would happen if the third country got inherited by the second country in the meantime, but I have personally not seen that happen.

    Here's the pic of when it happened with Castile-Aragon-Brittany:
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  14. #14
    Lt. General stnikolauswagne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chronicler View Post
    One still has to defeat both the kingdoms =P
    Actually no you dont have to, like with your denmark example it would be much more efficient to just blockade the oresund and occupy 100% of denmarks land, then you get 100% warscore without ever setting foot on swedisch soil. Likewise with the palatinate, he can probably assault every holding before france can even get troopst there.
    Quote Originally Posted by moldeh View Post
    Well, that's true. However, by claiming the throne of a county, you should probably claim the thrones of all the other ones it's PUed, simply because the king is the same for every single one of them and so is his family status. When the palatinate was left without a legitimate heir, so was france and so on and so forth. Your dynastic ties with the last legitimate ruler make you his legitimate heir and therefore you should also get the thrones of every county he had PUed; the same person can't have different heirs for every single one of his titles (unless we're talking gavelkind, but that's a different situation altogether). By forming a PU, you essentially succeed the last ruler and should therefore get all his titles, since your ties are to *him* and not to a specific *nation*. That's how I see it anyways.
    Na, its more complicated than that, there could be a legitimate child for one of the thrones but not for all. Lets say the king of palatinate has a daughter but in France female kings are not allowed. After his death anyone with a somewhat untarnished male lineage to the french throne could claim that throne in theory. Anyway, apart from those reasons it has a valid reasoning in gameplay. Lets say Ansbach gets a PU with France due to a string of good luck. If Ansbach at that time has a weak claim itself a smart player could just attack ansbach with the Claim CB, assault its one province and get a PU with France without any work at all.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by stnikolauswagne View Post
    Actually no you dont have to, like with your denmark example it would be much more efficient to just blockade the oresund and occupy 100% of denmarks land, then you get 100% warscore without ever setting foot on swedisch soil. Likewise with the palatinate, he can probably assault every holding before france can even get troopst there.

    Na, its more complicated than that, there could be a legitimate child for one of the thrones but not for all. Lets say the king of palatinate has a daughter but in France female kings are not allowed. After his death anyone with a somewhat untarnished male lineage to the french throne could claim that throne in theory. Anyway, apart from those reasons it has a valid reasoning in gameplay. Lets say Ansbach gets a PU with France due to a string of good luck. If Ansbach at that time has a weak claim itself a smart player could just attack ansbach with the Claim CB, assault its one province and get a PU with France without any work at all.
    Actually I occupied all of Denmarks provinces (obviously), and then realized I hadn't gotten 100% warscore, then I occupied most of Sweden and Norway as well, and I got so I could PU Denmark. I'm not retarded.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chronicler View Post
    Actually I occupied all of Denmarks provinces (obviously), and then realized I hadn't gotten 100% warscore, then I occupied most of Sweden and Norway as well, and I got so I could PU Denmark. I'm not retarded.
    Occupying all provinces of a country gives you a warscore of 100, no matter if they have personal unions or not. In a recent MP game i fought a Poland that had Hungary and Lithuania as PU's. Poland was soundly beaten but refused to surrender because i was not able to occupy all his provinces since rebels and his PU's drained my manpower. Anyway, after calling in Burgundy to help me mop up i occupied all his provinces and even though hungary occupied wien i had 100% warscore and could force my demands on him. So you probably missed something like gotland, Iceland or Greenland, otherwise you would have had it.

    Back to topic: I had once a very weird result, Poland was inherited by a random country but lithuania kept the PU with poland and Mazovia was still a vasal of poland. Later on lithuania somehow got Prussia in a PU and the game just got weirder from that point on.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by stnikolauswagne View Post
    Occupying all provinces of a country gives you a warscore of 100, no matter if they have personal unions or not. In a recent MP game i fought a Poland that had Hungary and Lithuania as PU's. Poland was soundly beaten but refused to surrender because i was not able to occupy all his provinces since rebels and his PU's drained my manpower. Anyway, after calling in Burgundy to help me mop up i occupied all his provinces and even though hungary occupied wien i had 100% warscore and could force my demands on him. So you probably missed something like gotland, Iceland or Greenland, otherwise you would have had it.

    Back to topic: I had once a very weird result, Poland was inherited by a random country but lithuania kept the PU with poland and Mazovia was still a vasal of poland. Later on lithuania somehow got Prussia in a PU and the game just got weirder from that point on.
    Yes, I thought that as well, since usually occupying all provinces give a warscore of 100% yes. BUT IT DIDN'T. And this was like year 1402, and Denmark didn't even own Gotland, and I checked, and I got all it's provinces.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stnikolauswagne View Post
    Back to topic: I had once a very weird result, Poland was inherited by a random country but lithuania kept the PU with poland and Mazovia was still a vasal of poland. Later on lithuania somehow got Prussia in a PU and the game just got weirder from that point on.
    In one of my game the Palatinate was a vassal of france but was also leading a personal union with Great Britain, I guess it wasn't that far from reality

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