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Thread: Dynamic Cores and the HRE

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tornadoli View Post
    So if it only represents foreign recognition, why the bonuses to tax, reduction to RR, etc.?
    No idea, I'm only following MM staff:

    Quote Originally Posted by k_merse
    Because having a core on a province means that you have an internationally accepted and recognized right (based on culture, contract, history or whatever) to own and control it.
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  2. #22
    Aὐτοκράτωρ Konstantinos XV's Avatar
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    A valid question actually. Afaik, Prussia was able to squeeze from Silesia much more than Austria ever did almost immediately following the conquest.

  3. #23
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    Hmm, that woul be Prussia very good AE. ;-)

  4. #24
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    Cores represent the acceptance of both the population and the international community. As long as your ownership is not recognized, you have to face the resistance of the population and the constant actions of foreign agents who try to destabilize your rule in the province.
    The answer of the Silesian issue is the better Prussian AE indeed.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by k_merse View Post
    Cores represent the acceptance of both the population and the international community. As long as your ownership is not recognized, you have to face the resistance of the population and the constant actions of foreign agents who try to destabilize your rule in the province.
    The answer of the Silesian issue is the better Prussian AE indeed.
    ???

    Foreign agents should be simulated by spy actions, not by 90% tax decrease.

  6. #26
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    Not necessarily. As long as you don't have appropriate claims, it is easy even for a traveler or traveling merchant to incite unrest in that province.
    But the bottom line is: If you conquer a HRE province without proper claims, you'll have to face with penalties and slower coring process. Stick with it

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by k_merse View Post
    Not necessarily. As long as you don't have appropriate claims, it is easy even for a traveler or traveling merchant to incite unrest in that province.
    But the bottom line is: If you conquer a HRE province without proper claims, you'll have to face with penalties and slower coring process. Stick with it
    Question - how is it harder to press a claim against a bunch of tiny states than it is to press it against one big state?

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Tornadoli View Post
    Okay, I get it, but why should I as France or Russia for instance, care what the Emperor or the Empire says? I conquered the province; why should it take any longer for it to be cored that other provinces?
    It does not matter whether they care. It matters that, in the European balance of power, the fragmented space of the HRE was generally recognized as a stabilizing factor; and that therefore, any neighboring powers with ambitions to take over chunks thereof were held back by a combination of all European powers.

    Exceptions, like the Reunion movement, confirm the rule; and this is suitably represented through the system we built. That is to say, the system is context-sensitive.

    Now, in general, the reason why a conquest of one French or Russian province is not the same as the conquest of a German one-province minor (OPM): militarily, it is much more easily done. Thus, in a game, where we do not hand players opportunities on a silver platter, it is therefore necessary for it to have consequences that may rival the inherent consequences of waging war against a country the size of Russia or France: it needs to hurt.
    Mourning Magna Mundi

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Tornadoli View Post
    Are you sure? Don't cores represent the opinion of the population?
    No, not exclusively. It helps if the people support your rule, but ultimately, this is a measure of right, i.e. recognition.
    Mourning Magna Mundi

  10. #30
    As a general comment, the implied Neo-Realist bent of some of the questions here strikes me as inadequate for the period of time this game represents. Legitimacy was about more than might.

    One thing to keep in mind is that we are representing history, but in a game, which is not exactly the same as a simulation. The rules must be conducive to good gameplay. The rules affecting cores do exactly that.
    Mourning Magna Mundi

  11. #31
    Lt. General mudcrabmerchant's Avatar
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    The arguments that foreign and local acceptance are fundamentally and perfectly tied together seem pretty weak. In a perfect world the two would be simulated with different mechanics, but that would require a far greater departure from the original EU3/MMtM base, and therefore a lot more work.

  12. #32
    Banned k_merse's Avatar
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    And needless to say, lot more power of your machine.
    Don't forget that every mechanism we add to the game has to be calculated on a daily basis and needs a lot of CPU power. Unfortunately our limitation is not only the time but also the playability of the game - especially on low-end machines.

  13. #33
    I don't totally aggree about the power of the HRE against country who take province of the HRE.
    For example the history of France contains many annexation of imperial territory without any reaction of the empire : Provence, city of Lyon, France-Comté, etc.
    And when the duc of Burgundy, Charles the Bold attack the duchy of Lorraine, part of the HRE, no reaction of the imperial institutions

  14. #34
    I still don't think there is a reason why HRE cores should core (MUCH) slower than others. If you want to prevent the abuse of annexing small minors, then create a system where the whole empire is called in if an outsider attacks or something; that would "hurt" enough.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Tornadoli View Post
    I still don't think there is a reason why HRE cores should core (MUCH) slower than others. If you want to prevent the abuse of annexing small minors, then create a system where the whole empire is called in if an outsider attacks or something; that would "hurt" enough.
    Under the correct circumstances, HRE cores actually "core" faster then normal - and under normal circumstances (where you follow HRE mechanics to achieve your HRE goals) coring is just as fast as outside in many cases.

    You don't like the fact that the HRE has different and separate mechanics - we understand, but we as a development team think that the HRE mechanics are both necessary and desired.

    It is quite funny - you ask that we
    ...create a system where the whole empire is called in if an outsider attacks
    This section of the manual might be of interest to you:

    Espionage Missions of the Empire Explained - Over the course of the history of the Holy Roman Empire, there were many espionage activities carried out by agents for the Emperor. As Emperor, you can attempt any of these missions when a province of the Empire is under illegal occupation.

    Send the Imperial Army - This province is under illegal occupation. Liberate it by sending the Imperial Army against the occupier.

    Send Imperial Army Convener - Send a contingent of the Imperial Army to attempt to retake this province. If the owner of this province agrees to negotiate with, or is toppled by these troops, provinces will be returned to the legitimate owners.
    Also of interest to you might be the following Central reform the Emperor can attempt to pass:

    Peace of the Realm (Landfriede) – Imperial Influence: +0.5 per year
    Imperial law forbids warfare between member states. Now, the Emperor will always be asked to come to the help of member states of the HRE when they are attacked. Conveners of Imperial Circuits are no longer allowed to take military action on behalf of the Empire and its laws, on their own.
    All of this is available for you to read in the manual for further exploration.

  16. #36
    Colonel Kaarle XII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by frgo View Post
    I don't totally aggree about the power of the HRE against country who take province of the HRE.
    For example the history of France contains many annexation of imperial territory without any reaction of the empire : Provence, city of Lyon, France-Comté, etc.
    And when the duc of Burgundy, Charles the Bold attack the duchy of Lorraine, part of the HRE, no reaction of the imperial institutions
    True. Also I think that the manner in which you take the province should affect the reaction. I was playing the mod as France, and my first HRE conquest was Metz. That made the Emperor unhappy, and in a while Austria attacked me. I won the war, and took Vlaanderen as reparation. Later they attacked me again, and this time I took Antwerpen after winning. Needless to say, I faced massive penalties after taking two more HRE provinces, but both were a direct result of me defending myself, and the Emperor being beaten (pretty badly). What I'm saying is that I think the penalties received were way over the top, as I wasn't the aggressor. The Emperor should face the consequences for losing wars just as everyone else.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by frgo View Post
    I don't totally aggree about the power of the HRE against country who take province of the HRE.
    For example the history of France contains many annexation of imperial territory without any reaction of the empire : Provence, city of Lyon, France-Comté, etc.
    And when the duc of Burgundy, Charles the Bold attack the duchy of Lorraine, part of the HRE, no reaction of the imperial institutions
    If I remember off-hand, France already owns cores on both Province and French-Comte in the campaign start, and so, as long France takes these provinces in a legitimate manner, they should be able to do so with minimal reaction of the Empire.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaarle XII View Post
    ... I won the war, and took Vlaanderen as reparation. Later they attacked me again, and this time I took Antwerpen after winning. ...
    Those "annexations" seem very aggressive to me; if you were truly defensive, then you would not have expanded any further.

    Nevertheless, the penalties and the options available to both the "aggressor" and the "non-aggressor" are different in the game then in the mod. Also the game has a different dynamic when these come into play then the mod had.

  19. #39
    Colonel Kaarle XII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zolotaya View Post

    Nevertheless, the penalties and the options available to both the "aggressor" and the "non-aggressor" are different in the game then in the mod. Also the game has a different dynamic when these come into play then the mod had.
    Fair enough, I'm looking forward to seeing them in action!

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Zolotaya View Post
    Under the correct circumstances, HRE cores actually "core" faster then normal - and under normal circumstances (where you follow HRE mechanics to achieve your HRE goals) coring is just as fast as outside in many cases.

    You don't like the fact that the HRE has different and separate mechanics - we understand, but we as a development team think that the HRE mechanics are both necessary and desired.

    It is quite funny - you ask that we

    This section of the manual might be of interest to you:



    Also of interest to you might be the following Central reform the Emperor can attempt to pass:



    All of this is available for you to read in the manual for further exploration.
    Thanks for these answers. I don't dislike that the HRE has different and seperate mechanics, I just don't fully understand why they should apply to NON-members of the HRE, eg. why should HRE provinces be penalized etc.

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