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Thread: Combatspeed

  1. #1

    Combatspeed

    I hope it is only because of pre alpha etc, but the fighting seemed to be really slow in the last video.

    I don't want wotr to become a fast spammy game like m&b has become, but some more speed would be nice.

    All the other m&b players I talked to said the same.

  2. #2
    Private Valvar's Avatar
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    Maybe a SLIGHT increase, but I think the speed is fine as it is.
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  3. #3
    Colonel ElricVonRabe's Avatar
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    I agree with a slight increase, but don't overdo it.

    Having feint-spamfests like in M&B is no fun.
    And the speed of real combat, well that kind of speed just can't simulated by this kind of game, which is fine.

  4. #4
    God of War and Thunder Demi Moderator Baynard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ElricVonRabe View Post
    Having feint-spamfests like in M&B is no fun.
    I agree, not quite as much as M&B but still pretty close, this means that it will require more skill in order to overcome other players speed abilities. Feinting is a good thing I think.
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  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by ElricVonRabe View Post
    Having feint-spamfests like in M&B is no fun.
    What's so wrong with feinting?

    Yes, speed should be increased in order to have develop fighting skills that will put you above others.

  6. #6
    Probably he means the speed people can feint at in warband. It is by no means realistic^^

    Feinting is nice indeed, but as said, it shouldn't be as if your sword was made of air with no weight at all

  7. #7
    God of War and Thunder Demi Moderator Baynard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kal_Zakath View Post
    Probably he means the speed people can feint at in warband. It is by no means realistic^^

    Feinting is nice indeed, but as said, it shouldn't be as if your sword was made of air with no weight at all
    True, the great sword would have required a rather large man to use it efficiently, but Warband allows you to feint it around like you were a god.
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  8. #8
    Coming from 1000+ hours of Mount and Blade: Warband........... DON'T SPEED THE MOVEMENT UP. Don't speed the two handed swords up. Perhaps speed the one handed swords up, and the polearms. But it depends on the damage that the polearms are to give. You could easily make polearms the slowest weapons, but the most damaging IF they DO hit.

    I understand saying it's, "Medieval Battlefield." For the media and publicity, but do not actually make this game into a fast paced game just like all the others these days. Timing, Precision, and cunning is that would need here. Not spam, luck, and trolling.

  9. #9
    Hello! First post here

    I also watched the WTF is and some other video's, and while I'm definitely interested in the game, the combat speed shown in these video's really is a major concern to me. Now, I used to play a lot of Mount&Blade Warband, and, especially when I just had the game, dueling was one of my favourite pastimes, so I knew the combat system fairly well. I can say, with 95% certainty, that this combat speed will render many of the better Warband players almost invincible in melee combat unless there are other combat mechanics I don't know about. Even in Warband there are quite a few players who parry well over 90% of the attacks you throw at them, regardless of how many feints you weave into your attacks. With the combat speed I perceived in the WotR video's, they will probably miss one parry per day or so.

    Obviously, Mount&Blade has a lot of flaws in its combat system as well. Many of you mainly seem concerned about the feintspamming in M&B, which does not have to be directly related to the combat speed. While I could cope with feintspam in Mount&Blade, I would agree that it's not a good combat mechanic: the main reason it was a problem was because there was no reason not to feint. There was no penalty whatsoever for feinting, and as long as you made sure you weren't predictable, there was practically no risk either. On top of that, feinting was also very easy to learn: it took very little skill to use in combat, but it took significant skill to defend against feinting opponents. These problems are all directly related to how feinting is implemented, not how fast the combat speed is. You can increase the combat speed to a more challenging level without getting all these issues if your feinting system works differently or is absent. So, in short: I don't think "Don't turn up the combat speed or it'll turn into a feintspamfest like M&B" is a valid argument, because feintspam is an issue that is only related to but not automatically caused by higher combat speeds, and a better feint system design can make sure there is no issue with feints at all. I am, however, fairly sure that the current combat speed will not lend itself to skill based combat among veteran players.

  10. #10
    God of War and Thunder Demi Moderator Baynard's Avatar
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    Yes I am worried about the ease that may be involved in blocking considering the experience many have gained in M&B and I sure do hope there is a compromise to this.
    A.K.A. Hugues


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  11. #11
    Fact: Slower game speeds make player develop timing attacks and exploit block/attack timing.
    Fact: Faster timing makes players have a twitch like response to attacks. i.e. less thinking more reacting.
    Fact: Server side settings creates the best of both worlds.
    Fact: Amazing things happen when slower players meet up with faster players in tournaments and on each other's server.
    Fact: All the above has been shown and proven true by Warband's combat speed system.

    Pretty sure server side is always best thing ever.
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  12. #12
    God of War and Thunder Demi Moderator Baynard's Avatar
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    Well yes, if the speed settings can be edited server side like in Warband - that would be great, but I have a feeling it won't happen.
    A.K.A. Hugues


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  13. #13
    Colonel ElricVonRabe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baynard View Post
    Well yes, if the speed settings can be edited server side like in Warband - that would be great, but I have a feeling it won't happen.
    A agree, the ability to change this in server settings would be the best way to go.
    And maybe it'll happen - I mean I think there is not much set completely in stone yet - be positive!
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  14. #14
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    True, but as they are trying to follow the footsteps of BF and CoD (in a way) then I highly doubt that they will allow servers to edit the speed of combat. But as you say, no-one knows, we'll have to wait and see.
    A.K.A. Hugues


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  15. #15
    Hello over here as well mr narriator

    I honestly think that combat speed is vital part of the game that should be constant. I prefer medium on warband but the remaining players prefer fastest over in na, now i cant really find the game i enjoyed playing anymore. It's jarring to switch combat speeds,. Other settings dont really affect to much, but timing and muscle memory all goes away. I always feel like a games timings should be as constant as possible.

    Though i guess in this game there will probably be standard settings if you want to run a server that will update players xp, so probably not as big an issue here to worry about losing the 'default' game.

    So my theory with this game though is that feinting would probably be mostly useless as is. If you watch the videos, you sort of see that a non charged swing does almost no damage...if the game stays this way, youll need to hold the swing down anyway to do some damage, which would be sufficient time to catch most blocks.

    There were some perks we saw in there that will affect what you can do or not in terms of things like chambers i think, so there are some things we dont know yet.

    Honstly, the best time i had playing warbad was dueling neih who basically never missed a block unless you did weird things with your timing, and the result of all that play was a realing intersting game, and i think that is something a lot of people have missed out on in warband unless they had a lot of dedicated friends to play with. I always felt warbands system would be best if it was still fun while using autoblock, and i hope they can figure that out here.

    But largly yes, i hope they understand that the vast majority of players will hardly ever choose the wrong direction to block at the current speeds.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Salahudin View Post
    Fact: Slower game speeds make player develop timing attacks and exploit block/attack timing.
    Fact: Faster timing makes players have a twitch like response to attacks. i.e. less thinking more reacting.
    Fact: Server side settings creates the best of both worlds.
    Fact: Amazing things happen when slower players meet up with faster players in tournaments and on each other's server.
    Fact: All the above has been shown and proven true by Warband's combat speed system.

    Pretty sure server side is always best thing ever.
    I disagree with server side settings for something as important as combat speed. The reason is that a melee combat system, especially one with a large number of weapons which all have to be balanced, is an extremely intricate system which requires a lot of fine tuning from the developers in order to be both enjoyable and balanced. Making a parameter such as combat speed variable simply doesn't work, it would break the subtle relations between all weapons entirely. A single, well thought-out and developed combat speed setting is vastly superior. Just to be an arse: that's a "fact" :P. I know Warband allowed customizing combat speed, but Warband also really didn't care all that much about weapon balance, and it showed.

    So I think the right thing to do is to make sure there is a standard combat speed which is both challenging for the reflexes and for the mind (even if there will be customisable combat speed, there should be a recommended setting which will be used by 95% of the servers). And I'm fairly sure the speed I saw in the video's is simply so unchallenging for the reflexes that attacking with water balloons would probably have more effect on a veteran player than attacking with a sword. You can think your attacks and your footwork through as much as you like, with that combat speed, you will not break through the defence of a Mount&Blade veteran. You must make sure the reflex part of the combat system remains somewhat challenging even for the most advanced players.

    edit: oh, hi reapy!

  17. #17
    God of War and Thunder Demi Moderator Baynard's Avatar
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    Yeh I never thought about perks for chambering - maybe there will be some that will in some way effect blocking/feinting/chambering - hope to hear somethings from the devs about this speed issue.
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  18. #18
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    I dont think its too slow at the moment but it isnt fast either. Server Side option ? Like M&B, I do somehow still like knights being slower.

  19. #19
    God of War and Thunder Demi Moderator Baynard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digu21 View Post
    I do somehow still like knights being slower.
    You want them slower again or are happy with their current speed?
    A.K.A. Hugues


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  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by TheNarrator View Post
    I disagree with server side settings for something as important as combat speed. The reason is that a melee combat system, especially one with a large number of weapons which all have to be balanced, is an extremely intricate system which requires a lot of fine tuning from the developers in order to be both enjoyable and balanced. Making a parameter such as combat speed variable simply doesn't work, it would break the subtle relations between all weapons entirely. A single, well thought-out and developed combat speed setting is vastly superior. Just to be an arse: that's a "fact" :P. I know Warband allowed customizing combat speed, but Warband also really didn't care all that much about weapon balance, and it showed.

    So I think the right thing to do is to make sure there is a standard combat speed which is both challenging for the reflexes and for the mind (even if there will be customisable combat speed, there should be a recommended setting which will be used by 95% of the servers). And I'm fairly sure the speed I saw in the video's is simply so unchallenging for the reflexes that attacking with water balloons would probably have more effect on a veteran player than attacking with a sword. You can think your attacks and your footwork through as much as you like, with that combat speed, you will not break through the defence of a Mount&Blade veteran. You must make sure the reflex part of the combat system remains somewhat challenging even for the most advanced players.

    edit: oh, hi reapy!
    Actually, its just a question of ratios. You just make everything a bit faster, from movement, to swinging, to blocking, to horse riding.
    Is the Warband weapon pool balanced. To some degree, yes. Did they care much about it? Probably not (look at how over-powered Great Swords are atm for example)

    You must remember the main reason combat speeds were put in place in Warband; the Singe Player.
    It was a way to modify difficulty. Once a person had gotten skilled enough, playing on medium combat speed simply wasn't as tasking. You didn't need funny timings to beat the Bots, you just needed to figure out their silly attack patterns and use kicks.
    Faster and Fastest allowed the game to be more challenging and thats the reason why any combat speed slider should be in the game; War of the Roses is no exception.
    Its just that these combat speeds develop different styles of play for different people. I honestly don't understand this 'everyone should play the same thing' attitude, its super silly. People have prefences and server settings make those who agree on certain things play somewhere and those who don't play somewhere else.

    For someone like me with over 1000 hours on Warband, Medium was simply too easy. I could chamber everything I wanted, and so I moved on to fastet, where I still can miss some chambers sometimes. Its about level of play and difficulty and I think its super crucial and important to make different speed options. Good weapon damage balance has nothing to do with the speeds, so as long as their speeds are fine in 'standard' speed, it should be fine in the 'fast' speed. Again, just like in Warband. Just smaller attack/block/reaction windows, but the root mechanics remain the same.
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