+ Reply to Thread
Results 1 to 15 of 15

Thread: Learning Time! So, how did the Byzantine government actually work?

  1. #1

    Learning Time! So, how did the Byzantine government actually work?

    I see this crop up in threads all the time, that the ERE was not really feudal, that High/Absolute Crown Authority do their best to replicate the setting, and so on.

    Since I don't know, and the wikipedia article on the government of the time is quick and vague, can anyone provide insight?

  2. #2
    First Lieutenant BaronVonHarry's Avatar
    Crusader Kings IIMount & Blade: WarbandEuropa Universalis IV

    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Kennewick, Washington
    Posts
    259
    To become emperor, one must assassinate the current emperor.

  3. #3
    First Lieutenant Gogog's Avatar
    Hearts of Iron 2: ArmageddonCrusader Kings IIDarkest HourDeus VultEuropa Universalis: Chronicles
    Victoria 2Victoria II: A House DividedVictoria II: Heart of DarknessCK2: Holy Knight500k club
    Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order

    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Auckland, Nz
    Posts
    201
    For the emperor one thing mattered over everything else.

    He who controls the spice, controls the universe.

    Nah seriously, it was basically almost a modern state with a really well developed career bureaucracy.

    For a boring if accurate description see 'Ruling the Later Roman Empire' it sums things up pretty well and draws heavily on the memoirs of John Lydus. He was a new man and very bitter that he didn't reach the top of his department. When he's not attacking his superiors for holding him back, he provides a very interesting insiders view.

  4. #4
    Private soopaman2's Avatar
    Crusader Kings IIEU3 CompleteHearts of Iron IIIHeir to the ThroneKing Arthur II
    Semper FiMount & Blade: WarbandPride of Nations500k club

    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Divided States of America
    Posts
    19
    It seems to start out as a state with vassals who hate each other and want to constantly war amongst each other.

    As an AI it can easily jack CA (early) up to stop this, but as a player, it is not so easy.
    I was always under the impression it was highly centralized, I just wonder sometimes what I have been doing wrong as a player. That the computer can do. I give the vassals all they want. Including titles they seem butthurt about me holding. I even experimented, I switched all taxes and levies to absolute minimum, then tried to put in Medium CA and got 140 out of 401 votes. Bribes (gifts) did nothing, and the vote ends.

    People outside my control (like Bulgaria, and Armenia) have more votes than actual vassals of mine, who actually contribute to "this thing of ours" and that is crap IMHO. I know they are Kings, but they do nothing for me, nor me for them. So why should they have more votes than the King of Africa, or all my random dukes who has added more land to my realm than they ever could?

    In other words. The ERE is not too well represented IMHO.

  5. #5
    First Lieutenant IGGEL's Avatar
    Crusader Kings IIDarkest HourEuropa Universalis: ChroniclesHearts of Iron IIIHOI3: Their Finest Hour
    March of the EaglesSemper FiSengokuVictoria 2Victoria II: A House Divided
    Victoria II: Heart of DarknessEuropa Universalis IV: Pre-order

    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Count Wanko's Dungeon
    Posts
    221
    Also, iirc, they had a professional standing army. Not thousands of levies pouring over into whoever they didn't like.

  6. #6
    Regent-Custodian of the Light riknap's Avatar
    Crusader Kings IIEU3 CompleteDivine WindFor the MotherlandHearts of Iron III
    HOI3: Their Finest HourHeir to the ThroneMagickaSemper FiSengoku
    Victoria 2Victoria II: A House DividedMount & Blade: WarbandMount & Blade: With Fire and SwordWar of the Roses
    500k clubEuropa Universalis IV: Pre-orderEUIV: Call to arms event

    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Las islas de San Lázaro
    Posts
    6,109
    Blog Entries
    7
    Quote Originally Posted by IGGEL View Post
    Also, iirc, they had a professional standing army. Not thousands of levies pouring over into whoever they didn't like.
    although by the time period at the crusades, especially post-Manzikert, they were increasingly (not solely of course) reliant on mercenary troops
    LUX INVICTA! Rebuild the Empire of Megas Alexandros! Restore Roman Glory! Banish the Dark Ages!
    >>[Subsidiary Modules] [Frequent Questions] [Gameplay Guide] [Changelogs] [LUX INVICTA AETERNA]<<

    Saeculum Obscurum: A Late Antiquity Mod, Fall of the Western Roman Empire and Rise of the Early Medieval Era. [beta state]
    LIBERT3 Primary Portal, for the Lux Invicta Buildings & Events, Retinues & Tactics, Traits & Technology Module. [INTEGRATED]
    Advanced Battles & Combat Depth Essentials. Planning portal for a comprehensive tactics overhaul project. [WIP - RESUMED]
    El Psy Congroo: Battle for world-line delta. A role-playing invasion modification. [WIP - EXP farming]

  7. #7
    Κατεπάνω Καλιφορνίας Zenith Darksea's Avatar
    Crusader Kings IIEuropa Universalis 3Divine WindHearts of Iron IIIHeir to the Throne
    Semper FiVictoria 2Victoria II: A House DividedVictoria II: Heart of Darkness

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    733
    The Byzantine Empire's government and administration is basically not represented at all. They are essentially a clone of the Western European countries - an understandable design decision, as Paradox didn't want to have to create an entirely new governing system, but not a historically accurate one.

    As it has been said, Byzantium in the eleventh century was an empire governed from a large, sophisticated bureaucracy based in Constantinople. The bureaucracy was as close as the Middle Ages ever came to modern 'professionalism' and required a formal education in literature and rhetoric. Although the official language was Classical Greek, it was a multi-ethnic administration; historical sources contain many references to Italians, Slavs, Bulgars, Armenians, Georgians, Turks and Cumans (among others) in the government.

    The empire was divided up into various provincial units (Themata, Katepanikia, Kleisourai, Archontiai etc.) that were not uniformly imposed across imperial territory but rather based on local conditions. These were governed by a military aristocracy which was in theory subservient to the civil administration and the emperor in Constantinople. Military leadership roles were not hereditary as in Western Europe, but were rather appointments made by the central government. They were often rotated, with various commanders being given authority over several different administrative units over their career. Although Byzantine aristocrats did own hereditary land, and although Byzantine provincial administration gradually became somewhat more similar to the western 'feudal' model over the centuries through the introduction of e.g. the pronoia system, Byzantine society was not ordered along western 'feudal' lines.

    Ultimately CK2 does an exceedingly poor job of representing Byzantine government and society; or, rather, it makes no effort to do so. However, the designers presumably felt that the effort in research and implementation was greater than they could justify.

  8. #8
    Regent-Custodian of the Light riknap's Avatar
    Crusader Kings IIEU3 CompleteDivine WindFor the MotherlandHearts of Iron III
    HOI3: Their Finest HourHeir to the ThroneMagickaSemper FiSengoku
    Victoria 2Victoria II: A House DividedMount & Blade: WarbandMount & Blade: With Fire and SwordWar of the Roses
    500k clubEuropa Universalis IV: Pre-orderEUIV: Call to arms event

    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Las islas de San Lázaro
    Posts
    6,109
    Blog Entries
    7
    Quote Originally Posted by Zenith Darksea View Post
    The Byzantine Empire's government and administration is basically not represented at all. They are essentially a clone of the Western European countries - an understandable design decision, as Paradox didn't want to have to create an entirely new governing system, but not a historically accurate one.

    As it has been said, Byzantium in the eleventh century was an empire governed from a large, sophisticated bureaucracy based in Constantinople. The bureaucracy was as close as the Middle Ages ever came to modern 'professionalism' and required a formal education in literature and rhetoric. Although the official language was Classical Greek, it was a multi-ethnic administration; historical sources contain many references to Italians, Slavs, Bulgars, Armenians, Georgians, Turks and Cumans (among others) in the government.

    The empire was divided up into various provincial units (Themata, Katepanikia, Kleisourai, Archontiai etc.) that were not uniformly imposed across imperial territory but rather based on local conditions. These were governed by a military aristocracy which was in theory subservient to the civil administration and the emperor in Constantinople. Military leadership roles were not hereditary as in Western Europe, but were rather appointments made by the central government. They were often rotated, with various commanders being given authority over several different administrative units over their career. Although Byzantine aristocrats did own hereditary land, and although Byzantine provincial administration gradually became somewhat more similar to the western 'feudal' model over the centuries through the introduction of e.g. the pronoia system, Byzantine society was not ordered along western 'feudal' lines.

    Ultimately CK2 does an exceedingly poor job of representing Byzantine government and society; or, rather, it makes no effort to do so. However, the designers presumably felt that the effort in research and implementation was greater than they could justify.
    as I commented in another thread, one of the devs did say in a thread a long time ago that they were considering making ERE not playable until they could make an expansion/DLC that represents it a lot better, but released it anyway since it was likely to receive a more negative reaction if they made the byzzies unplayable at the start until mechanics could be made for them (as that dev said, those would be accusations of "locking out content" yadda yadda).
    tl;dr:
    That said, letting the ERE be playable using the Western European mechanics really is just a stopgap solution since they just didn't have enough time/budget to make the ERE completely unique
    Last edited by riknap; 25-04-2012 at 05:25.
    LUX INVICTA! Rebuild the Empire of Megas Alexandros! Restore Roman Glory! Banish the Dark Ages!
    >>[Subsidiary Modules] [Frequent Questions] [Gameplay Guide] [Changelogs] [LUX INVICTA AETERNA]<<

    Saeculum Obscurum: A Late Antiquity Mod, Fall of the Western Roman Empire and Rise of the Early Medieval Era. [beta state]
    LIBERT3 Primary Portal, for the Lux Invicta Buildings & Events, Retinues & Tactics, Traits & Technology Module. [INTEGRATED]
    Advanced Battles & Combat Depth Essentials. Planning portal for a comprehensive tactics overhaul project. [WIP - RESUMED]
    El Psy Congroo: Battle for world-line delta. A role-playing invasion modification. [WIP - EXP farming]

  9. #9
    Interesting Zentih,

    Sounds like there'd be a great mod in this if somebody was passionate about getting it right.

  10. #10
    American Tyrant Beamed's Avatar
    200k clubCrusader Kings IIDarkest HourDeus VultEuropa Universalis 3
    Divine WindFor the MotherlandHearts of Iron IIIHeir to the ThroneEuropa Universalis III: In Nomine
    LegioMagickaMarch of the EaglesSemper FiVictoria 2
    Victoria II: A House DividedVictoria II: Heart of DarknessMount & Blade: WarbandPride of NationsCK2: Holy Knight
    500k clubEuropa Universalis IV: Pre-orderEUIV: Call to arms event

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Detroit, Michigan
    Posts
    2,415
    Quote Originally Posted by Zenith Darksea View Post
    The Byzantine Empire's government and administration is basically not represented at all. They are essentially a clone of the Western European countries - an understandable design decision, as Paradox didn't want to have to create an entirely new governing system, but not a historically accurate one.

    As it has been said, Byzantium in the eleventh century was an empire governed from a large, sophisticated bureaucracy based in Constantinople. The bureaucracy was as close as the Middle Ages ever came to modern 'professionalism' and required a formal education in literature and rhetoric. Although the official language was Classical Greek, it was a multi-ethnic administration; historical sources contain many references to Italians, Slavs, Bulgars, Armenians, Georgians, Turks and Cumans (among others) in the government.

    The empire was divided up into various provincial units (Themata, Katepanikia, Kleisourai, Archontiai etc.) that were not uniformly imposed across imperial territory but rather based on local conditions. These were governed by a military aristocracy which was in theory subservient to the civil administration and the emperor in Constantinople. Military leadership roles were not hereditary as in Western Europe, but were rather appointments made by the central government. They were often rotated, with various commanders being given authority over several different administrative units over their career. Although Byzantine aristocrats did own hereditary land, and although Byzantine provincial administration gradually became somewhat more similar to the western 'feudal' model over the centuries through the introduction of e.g. the pronoia system, Byzantine society was not ordered along western 'feudal' lines.

    Ultimately CK2 does an exceedingly poor job of representing Byzantine government and society; or, rather, it makes no effort to do so. However, the designers presumably felt that the effort in research and implementation was greater than they could justify.
    The devs said they wanted to exclude Byzantium entirely, for the reasons you gave, but as the fans would revolt, included it along the lines of Western Europe, and thus might create a more Byzantine-esque system for them in DLC.
    "We give the facts. You can't say that we have a slant because of it. I hear that the jury's in on evolution."

    "When you divide a country into two sides, one of which cheers the idea of murder and hate, you don't have much choice in which side you're on."

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by IGGEL View Post
    Also, iirc, they had a professional standing army. Not thousands of levies pouring over into whoever they didn't like.
    Just before the start date they had a large standing army of levies funnily enough. These were all disbanded though and the new Emperor moved to a mercenary-based army.

  12. #12
    Regent-Custodian of the Light riknap's Avatar
    Crusader Kings IIEU3 CompleteDivine WindFor the MotherlandHearts of Iron III
    HOI3: Their Finest HourHeir to the ThroneMagickaSemper FiSengoku
    Victoria 2Victoria II: A House DividedMount & Blade: WarbandMount & Blade: With Fire and SwordWar of the Roses
    500k clubEuropa Universalis IV: Pre-orderEUIV: Call to arms event

    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Las islas de San Lázaro
    Posts
    6,109
    Blog Entries
    7
    Quote Originally Posted by Beamed View Post
    The devs said they wanted to exclude Byzantium entirely, for the reasons you gave, but as the fans would revolt, included it along the lines of Western Europe, and thus might create a more Byzantine-esque system for them in DLC.
    AND I finally found the relevant link
    http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/...1#post13443626
    to copy:
    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Gars View Post
    We would have preferred to keep the Byzantines out as well until we had enought time & budget to represent them better. But they were playable in the original CK and since we don't want accusations of taking things out of the game to be sold later, we left them in.
    You guys owe me some brain bleach.
    And aspirin
    LUX INVICTA! Rebuild the Empire of Megas Alexandros! Restore Roman Glory! Banish the Dark Ages!
    >>[Subsidiary Modules] [Frequent Questions] [Gameplay Guide] [Changelogs] [LUX INVICTA AETERNA]<<

    Saeculum Obscurum: A Late Antiquity Mod, Fall of the Western Roman Empire and Rise of the Early Medieval Era. [beta state]
    LIBERT3 Primary Portal, for the Lux Invicta Buildings & Events, Retinues & Tactics, Traits & Technology Module. [INTEGRATED]
    Advanced Battles & Combat Depth Essentials. Planning portal for a comprehensive tactics overhaul project. [WIP - RESUMED]
    El Psy Congroo: Battle for world-line delta. A role-playing invasion modification. [WIP - EXP farming]

  13. #13
    They where so very different western fedual life, they could make ERE expasion that would hot, not dlc but expasion.

  14. #14
    So, if the ERE were to be accurately represented, it would operate more along the lines of the Theocracy with Free Investiture, to put it in loose current game terms?

    I'm not sure how you'd get an appointment-based government system to work with the Dynastic core of Crusader Kings II, and retain its playability. Unless you are locked out to playing the Basileus himself and have that sort of control.

  15. #15
    Regent-Custodian of the Light riknap's Avatar
    Crusader Kings IIEU3 CompleteDivine WindFor the MotherlandHearts of Iron III
    HOI3: Their Finest HourHeir to the ThroneMagickaSemper FiSengoku
    Victoria 2Victoria II: A House DividedMount & Blade: WarbandMount & Blade: With Fire and SwordWar of the Roses
    500k clubEuropa Universalis IV: Pre-orderEUIV: Call to arms event

    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Las islas de San Lázaro
    Posts
    6,109
    Blog Entries
    7
    Quote Originally Posted by Joel M Bridge View Post
    They where so very different western fedual life, they could make ERE expasion that would hot, not dlc but expasion.
    as a thousand threads have already pointed out, they're changing their policy for CK2
    instead of traditional expansions (like in EU3), there will be modular gameplay DLC. for example, a muslim-gameplay DLC, then a Byzantium DLC. You can buy both or none, yet still play multiplayer with others whatever they have (both or none) since it will only affect your gameplay.
    in other words, just ignore the letters "DLC" and think of it as a "non-mandatory modular expansion add-on"
    LUX INVICTA! Rebuild the Empire of Megas Alexandros! Restore Roman Glory! Banish the Dark Ages!
    >>[Subsidiary Modules] [Frequent Questions] [Gameplay Guide] [Changelogs] [LUX INVICTA AETERNA]<<

    Saeculum Obscurum: A Late Antiquity Mod, Fall of the Western Roman Empire and Rise of the Early Medieval Era. [beta state]
    LIBERT3 Primary Portal, for the Lux Invicta Buildings & Events, Retinues & Tactics, Traits & Technology Module. [INTEGRATED]
    Advanced Battles & Combat Depth Essentials. Planning portal for a comprehensive tactics overhaul project. [WIP - RESUMED]
    El Psy Congroo: Battle for world-line delta. A role-playing invasion modification. [WIP - EXP farming]

+ Reply to Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts