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Thread: Virginia Submarine

  1. #1

    Virginia Submarine

    Virginia Submarine is to slow. Only 30kph not knots.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by slawek39 View Post
    Virginia Submarine is to slow. Only 30kph not knots.
    30 knots is about 60kph. Did u already move it on flank(top) speed?

    Edit: Ah I noticed this too max speed for nuclear sub is 15 knots in game. Small disel would go to 23 knots while nuclear should go above 33 knots.

    I also think many of the sub in game maybe too easy to detect passively.
    Last edited by Mighty Heart; 25-04-2012 at 09:49.
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  3. #3
    Turbo Tape Games Dev JanH's Avatar
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    Yes, the Virginia should be able to go faster. Will fix. Same applies to Ohio and Astute, obviously.

    Hard to know exactly how hard it is for towed array sonars to detect modern subs passively.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by JanH View Post

    Hard to know exactly how hard it is for towed array sonars to detect modern subs passively.
    Yeah that's a fair reasoning.

    Thanks for willing to fix the speed
    "A society that robs an individual of the product of his effort, or enslaves him, or attempts to limit the freedom of his mind, or compels him to act against his own rational judgment-a society that sets up a conflict between its edicts and the requirements of man's nature-is not, strictly speaking, a society, but a mob held together by institutionalized gang-rule. Such a society destroys all the values of human coexistence, has no possible justification and represents not a source of benefits, but the deadliest threat to man's survival" -Ayn Rand. Read about the nature of Singapore regime on 'exposingsingapore' blog

  5. #5
    Sergeant claudiucojo's Avatar

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    Yes Virginia should be at least 35 knots, the old boats Los Angeles could hit 35 knots and that's just the acknowledge speed, the abs. max speed is classified and probably closer to 40 knots for short bursts(more than 100%) but 35 knots max sustain speed should be a pretty accurate.

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    Sergeant claudiucojo's Avatar

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    Also I noticed some US torpedoes speed are not accurate, most of them use the 40 knot+ speed you can see in official data(wiki and other sources) but that's much slower than the actual speed, I agree that there is no way to know the real speed(because it's classified) but I would assume its closer to 50 - 55 knot at least and probably even more.

    The MARK 48 ADCAP for example is known to hit speed in the range of 60 - 65 knots even if the unclassified speed is 55 knots I think

    Right now its fairly easy to escape from torpedoes with the sub going full speed, that fact that its accelerating to that full speed(not accurate, a sub should take a around 1min to hit full speed I think) in a matters of second also does help :-)

    Quote from Wiki about the Alfa class submarine.

    "Acceleration to top speed took one minute and reversing 180 degrees at full speed took just 40 seconds."

    Now, the Alfa's were only designed for two things speed(40 knots+ sustained speed) and depth(around 900m), they were small boast with huge reactor so we can assume that for a normal sub like Virginia or Akula the time to hit full speed with be greater then 1 min maybe even twice since an Alfa weights 3,200 tons and a Virginia weights 7900 tons.

    So between 1 - 2 min should be the acceleration time, of course for large subs like Ohio class this should be even longer.

  7. #7
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    As a general rule, for the 'actual' absolute max speed, do you all think it'd be accurate to add a flat 10-15% increase to the highest speed settings for ships? From the data here and what bits I've gleaned out elsewhere, that seems to be the generally accepted bump for the difference between the real speed and the max published amounts.

  8. #8
    Turbo Tape Games Dev JanH's Avatar
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    We'll boost certain torpedo speeds for the next patch.

    Acceleration values are too high across the board. I don't want to just make some stuff up, but it's a pretty major piece of research to get it credible. So those adjustments will happen a bit later.

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    35kts is a wee bit much. The S9G reactor was geared for 30+ years without having to be refueled.

    For an SSBN, it is important to note that this is a natural circulation reactor designed to work without pumps, which allows quieter operations, but also limits speed. In defense of the BNs, they are virtually undetectable due to this. If I had a choice of speed or stealth, I'd take stealth every day.

    One thing I've noted, submarines are detected far too easily. A 774 class operating at a fairly slow speed is a hole in the water. The Virginia should detect her opponents first unless someone is running around at a flank bell.

    Additionally, using the WAA (Wide Aperture Array), she can instantaneously triangulate whatever she detects passively. Add the TB-29 to that ( assuming it's fully deployed and not at a short stay ), AND assuming the 774 has been on ordered course long enough to allow the array to stabilize should allow the SSN to get a decent picture of the tactical environment long before she can be counter detected.

    While operating in several scenarios, I've noticed that regardless of whether my array was deployed or not, I always seem to get counter detected. My SSN was operating at lowest possible speed, towed array fully deployed, and steady on course for ten minutes. The only way I would have an inaccurate solution would be for the contacts to be in forward end fire, and even at that, a ranging maneuver would have given me a good solution. In this case, the only detection I got was an active bouy in the water followed by a message saying that we were evading an attack. That is extremely unrealistic.

    One thing I haven't played with, and I'm curious about...have the passive EW sensors been factored in? At periscope depth, the 774 should be able to detect active transmissions and provide a 'fairly' accurate bearing, AND classification of the active emitter (courtesy of the AN/BLQ-10A(V)1 Sea Sentry).

    Are there any thoughts on updating things like this?

  10. #10
    Just keep it simple. Sturgeon and Ohio 25, LA 30, Seawolf & Virginia, 35. Flow noise will make passive sonar useless at at anything over 20.

    Torpedo speed is another whole can of worm. Most modern Torp have at least 2 speed setting. One is it's cruise speed that give it long range and then there is the sprint speed for terminal attack run. Most range data available assume a cruise speed for the majority of the distance with a bit of sprint speed for the final run in. But against an high speed target. You might kick it to high speed right away but that will dramatically shorten the range. No idea how we're going to account for that in game.
    Last edited by Wiz33; 26-04-2012 at 02:49.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by etc_ss View Post
    35kts is a wee bit much. The S9G reactor was geared for 30+ years without having to be refueled.

    For an SSBN, it is important to note that this is a natural circulation reactor designed to work without pumps, which allows quieter operations, but also limits speed. In defense of the BNs, they are virtually undetectable due to this. If I had a choice of speed or stealth, I'd take stealth every day.

    One thing I've noted, submarines are detected far too easily. A 774 class operating at a fairly slow speed is a hole in the water. The Virginia should detect her opponents first unless someone is running around at a flank bell.

    Additionally, using the WAA (Wide Aperture Array), she can instantaneously triangulate whatever she detects passively. Add the TB-29 to that ( assuming it's fully deployed and not at a short stay ), AND assuming the 774 has been on ordered course long enough to allow the array to stabilize should allow the SSN to get a decent picture of the tactical environment long before she can be counter detected.

    While operating in several scenarios, I've noticed that regardless of whether my array was deployed or not, I always seem to get counter detected. My SSN was operating at lowest possible speed, towed array fully deployed, and steady on course for ten minutes. The only way I would have an inaccurate solution would be for the contacts to be in forward end fire, and even at that, a ranging maneuver would have given me a good solution. In this case, the only detection I got was an active bouy in the water followed by a message saying that we were evading an attack. That is extremely unrealistic.

    One thing I haven't played with, and I'm curious about...have the passive EW sensors been factored in? At periscope depth, the 774 should be able to detect active transmissions and provide a 'fairly' accurate bearing, AND classification of the active emitter (courtesy of the AN/BLQ-10A(V)1 Sea Sentry).

    Are there any thoughts on updating things like this?
    For one I share your views but again Turbo Tape Games is a small developer I can understand it whether they make those changes or not especially about the submarines being too easy to detect.
    "A society that robs an individual of the product of his effort, or enslaves him, or attempts to limit the freedom of his mind, or compels him to act against his own rational judgment-a society that sets up a conflict between its edicts and the requirements of man's nature-is not, strictly speaking, a society, but a mob held together by institutionalized gang-rule. Such a society destroys all the values of human coexistence, has no possible justification and represents not a source of benefits, but the deadliest threat to man's survival" -Ayn Rand. Read about the nature of Singapore regime on 'exposingsingapore' blog

  12. #12
    Turbo Tape Games Dev JanH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by etc_ss View Post
    While operating in several scenarios, I've noticed that regardless of whether my array was deployed or not, I always seem to get counter detected. My SSN was operating at lowest possible speed, towed array fully deployed, and steady on course for ten minutes. The only way I would have an inaccurate solution would be for the contacts to be in forward end fire, and even at that, a ranging maneuver would have given me a good solution. In this case, the only detection I got was an active bouy in the water followed by a message saying that we were evading an attack. That is extremely unrealistic.
    Hello and thanks for your feedback. Obviously how easily these subs can be detected is something that is hard to find out from open sources, so we just have to try to make qualified guesses.

    The question is what detected you. The AI-run subs always run with they sonar arrays out as well. In my own experience, surface groups have essentially zero chance of detecting my subs until I almost touch them; the only way I am detected (apart from by another sub) is by active sonobuoys.

  13. #13
    Sergeant claudiucojo's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by etc_ss View Post
    35kts is a wee bit much. The S9G reactor was geared for 30+ years without having to be refueled.

    For an SSBN, it is important to note that this is a natural circulation reactor designed to work without pumps, which allows quieter operations, but also limits speed. In defense of the BNs, they are virtually undetectable due to this. If I had a choice of speed or stealth, I'd take stealth every day.

    One thing I've noted, submarines are detected far too easily. A 774 class operating at a fairly slow speed is a hole in the water. The Virginia should detect her opponents first unless someone is running around at a flank bell.

    Additionally, using the WAA (Wide Aperture Array), she can instantaneously triangulate whatever she detects passively. Add the TB-29 to that ( assuming it's fully deployed and not at a short stay ), AND assuming the 774 has been on ordered course long enough to allow the array to stabilize should allow the SSN to get a decent picture of the tactical environment long before she can be counter detected.

    While operating in several scenarios, I've noticed that regardless of whether my array was deployed or not, I always seem to get counter detected. My SSN was operating at lowest possible speed, towed array fully deployed, and steady on course for ten minutes. The only way I would have an inaccurate solution would be for the contacts to be in forward end fire, and even at that, a ranging maneuver would have given me a good solution. In this case, the only detection I got was an active bouy in the water followed by a message saying that we were evading an attack. That is extremely unrealistic.

    One thing I haven't played with, and I'm curious about...have the passive EW sensors been factored in? At periscope depth, the 774 should be able to detect active transmissions and provide a 'fairly' accurate bearing, AND classification of the active emitter (courtesy of the AN/BLQ-10A(V)1 Sea Sentry).

    Are there any thoughts on updating things like this?
    I think a Virginia should not have any problem hitting 35 knots and even higher but at that speed it will loose the noise advantage that it holds over the russian subs.

    But 35 knots would be a safe bet in my view for the Virginia, I am almost certain it can do more, there were reports that LosAngeles boats could do 37 or more knots in short bursts.

    By the way the Seawolf class has the same stealth as the Virginia and it's acknowledged that it can do 35 knots+, it has a bigger reactor than Virginia(45.000 Hp vs 40.000 Hp - from the public data) but it's also heavier 9,138 tons vs 7,900 tons so top speed should be roughly equal.

    Regarding the detection of the Virginia I agree, it's the stealthiest sub out there(only the Seawolf class has the same noise), they also employ technologies that can defeat active sonar(like sonobuoys and active sonars from helicopters or ships or other subs). I'm not saying that they are undetectable but for sure they are very very difficult to detect.

    I don't know if you have a setting like for the aircraft in the config files(but if there is one the Virginia should definitively be the most quite boat in the game other than the diesel SSN's when they run on batteries).

  14. #14
    Sergeant claudiucojo's Avatar

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    Also for the Virginia the depth is wrong right now, it should be ~ 2000 feet = 610 meters, the Virginia class as well as the Seawolf class are build from a new tougher steel called HY-100, which is stronger than the HY-80(Los Angeles and previous subs).

    Al this is public on wiki by the way(Quote from Seawolf wiki page):
    "Seawolf class hulls are constructed from HY-100 steel, which is stronger than the HY-80 steel employed in previous classes, in order to withstand water pressure at greater depths.[3][4] The boats also have extensive equipment to allow for "littoral", or "shallow-water" operations. The exact diving depth of this class of boats is classified; most reputable sources vary from 1600-2000 feet as a likely test depth, and from 2400-3200 feet for collapse depth."

  15. #15
    Turbo Tape Games Dev JanH's Avatar
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    Ok

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    HY-100 wasn't done for depth considerations but rather for the operating environment. The original 688 was never intended for under ice operations and as such had to be modified to replace the 637 class. The modification removed fairwater planes and brought retractable bow planes into the mix and, most importantly, reinforced the sail and modified the mast and antennas with an 'under ice' mode. (again, all open source info readily available).

    Virginia and Seawolf are two very different creatures 'under the hood'. SSN 774 class were designed to not be refueled for the life of the hull. SSN 21 class was designed for high output and to be refueled, so depending on EFPH over time, ten to fifteen years between refuels. So the 774s basically came with a "governor" on the engine to keep reactor life where it was intended to be...21s were cold war monsters designed to shoot 8 weapons at once, carry over 42 weapons in the torpedo room (actually two HUGE rooms to take out a whole Russian battle group on her own) and to get places FAST. The 774s were not designed with the cold war mission in mind but were the 'jack of all trades'. That's why there's also a lockout chamber in upper level for SOF personnel (and that is not taking into account the DDS capability if so equipped). Her sail is also 'modular' allowing for installation of special purpose masts if ever needed. 774s are also VERY cramped, one of the upper level berthings has passageways about 20-24 inches wide (even the racks were harder to get into). Seawolfs are wider (44 foot beam) and more 'crew' friendly.

    The 21 class removed the vertical launch tubes due to issues with maintenance, 774 reintroduced those tubes (block III will move to 2 large SSGN like tubes).

    Where they are similar is use of TB 29, WAA, Spherical Array (until block III 774 which will introduce LAB or large aperture bow array) and the combat system/sonar/ES fit (BYG-1/BQQ-10 and BLQ-10).

    With respect to noise suppression, they also differ. They also differ drastically from the 688/688i as well.

    There are good sources of information out there, but I would shy away from 'wikipedia'. I would lean towards Jane's Fighting Ships for this type of data...the book is expensive ( roughly $1000 ), but it's a good source that is constantly updated.

    As for how good surface towed arrays and SONAR sensors are...

    http://www.allamericanblogger.com/12...-battle-group/
    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...317r/?page=all

    If you read those articles, it should shed some light based on real world info...so between those and the Jane's fighting ships, a new guesstimate could be made on detection radius of the SQR-19 TACTAS for example. Add to that US crews have high op-tempos (time at sea) and are constantly graded on their proficiency (so boats at sea are pretty well trained), you should assume that the Virginia is a hole in the water...so are the 726's and 21's. The 688/688i are still pretty good and can hold their own with a good crew.

    Also, why are there harpoons on the US fast boats?
    Last edited by etc_ss; 27-04-2012 at 00:05.

  17. #17
    Sergeant claudiucojo's Avatar

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    Virginia is newer than the Seawolf and has some newer technologies, is true that it was meant to be 20% cheaper but not because it has degraded combat abilities, on the contrary it can do all that the Seawolf does and more(because of littoral water capability). It has a lower weapon payload(40 vs 50 and 4 torpedo tubes + 12 VLS(2x6 in Block III) vs 8 torpedo tubes) but it should still be enough to handle any conceivable thread out there.

    Virginia is cheaper because it was the first sub designed in CAD which reduced the design time dramatically and also potential problems with designers not knowing what the others were doing and creating problems when everyone tried to put everything together in the same place.

    They have a modular design where modules can be fabricated anywhere and just plunged in, there is no need to redesign a hole part of the sub to facilitate some changes.

    They are also splitting the sub construction between GD Electric Boat and Newport News Shipbuilding which reduced the cost from 2.4 bil -> 2.0 bil dollars.

    The Virginia class is far the chippest, jack of all trades sub that some are portraying. It's just that manufacturing and design technology has come a long way since the time the Seawolf was created.

    I don't thing that the Virginia is in any way less capable than the Seawolf class, it's just that it was designed to do what the Seawolf does and more.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by JanH View Post
    Yes, the Virginia should be able to go faster. Will fix. Same applies to Ohio and Astute, obviously.

    Hard to know exactly how hard it is for towed array sonars to detect modern subs passively.
    K thanks Jan. My issue with subs could be that I am not using them correctly, although I have read the informative posts here regarding them to try and help a bit. Even on Easy, my Virginia class submarines at max depth, with everything shut off (before any detection measures are dropped) are getting detected every single time, then fired on and destroyed. Some of the posts I read say to going to max depth and 0 speed, everything passive. It's not helping me so I was wondering if there's another trick I am missing?

    Once the weapons are launched, the sub goes into "Evasion" mode, bringing up my speed, setting wps, etc. Is there a way in-game to stop the evasion mode? If I click on say stop, the AI raises sub speed again, regardless of what I do.

    Any help would be much appreciated, we are just baffled.

  19. #19
    Turbo Tape Games Dev JanH's Avatar
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    Pharseer,

    Automatic evasion can be turned on and off in the settings panel. Note it will only apply to units that are already detected and targeted.

    In what scenario is your Virginia toast every time?

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by JanH View Post
    Pharseer,

    Automatic evasion can be turned on and off in the settings panel. Note it will only apply to units that are already detected and targeted.

    In what scenario is your Virginia toast every time?
    Flashpoint Keflavik, see that Virginia northeast of Iceland? The one furthest from there, I believe it's the Virgina, as opposed to the Texas which starts closer in.

    I have no time to get aircraft up there, and no matter what I do, that sub is toast on Easy difficulty. Can't imagine how hard this would be on the upper difficulty levels.

    I got lucky, and once I had been detected, I launched everything I had, and my last two torpedos took out the enemy Carrier and I got the Victory. However, my friend who just got the game, was extremely frustrated at losing that sub off the getgo, so I promised him I would check in with you and see what we did wrong.

    I have to do this mission again, because like some other missions, I got no achievement, even after the victory screen. I would like to have a shot at saving the Virginia if at all possible, unless it's a sacrificial lamb kind of thing?

    Thanks for your help!

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