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Thread: Interest and development thread for a new Kingdom game

  1. #1
    High King Deaghaidh's Avatar
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    Interest and development thread for a new Kingdom game

    I want to know if there's enough interest in generating a new forum game, inspired by the late lamented Kingdom: A game involving you! thread.

    I've already talked a bit about it in this thread:

    http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/...igil-and-words

    A nutshell of what I have so far:
    Neumark is a kingdom that is extremely loosely based on England just before the Hundred Years War. It's divided amongst a diverse set of Great Lords, ruled over by a powerful royal dynasty. But a plague recently hit, claiming the lives of the current King's heirs and leaving him no obvious successor. The king himself is old and sickness and grief have seemingly broken his mind.

    I'd GM, players would be the great lords and (if there is sufficient interest) their vassals. Possibly we could have players representing church factions and chartered towns as well. There would be a bit more rule standardization than the Kingdom in order to make the game less GM-focused, so it wouldn't have to sputter and die if I got sick/employed/girlfriended.

    Even if you're not sure about playing, but think building a fictional kingdom might be neat, I could certainly use help with the setting. Particularly I need someone capable of making decent maps, but also people to help flesh out the general skeleton of the game that I'm working on.

    If this seems like fun to you, say so!

  2. #2
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  3. #3
    Creating a fictional kingdom?
    Who could refuse to that?!

    Actually, for some time I've had an idea twisting aroung my mind, for a IOP like thingie..... I'd be more than glad to contribute even though I may not be able to play the final version. Sadly, I have little idea of the Kingdom, never followed that thread enough to get a grasp of the mechanics

    In my idea the mandatory previous decadence was triggered by a mini ice age which was triggered by volcanic activity (like the Triasic-Jurasic extinction) and then came the plague and similar stuff.... Even have some hand made maps somewhere...

    EDIT: Here's a quickie

    Click image for larger version

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    Last edited by Mr. Santiago; 24-04-2012 at 22:18.
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    Sounds interesting

  5. #5
    High King Deaghaidh's Avatar
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    Ok, so there is some interest then. Enough to proceed IMHO.

    Santiago, that map is really good, and I'm 100% behind using it as a general plan. I'd have to rewrite a few things, but not that much. One request: could we have a much more substantial landmass in the north? We need a vast northern wilderness. Maybe something connecting the right-hand norther island with the northern island chain, and even carrying on off the top end of the map.

    I'm assuming arrows mean prevailing winds/currents, and the smoke trails on mountains mark volcanoes?

    The Kingdom was different than IOT in several ways: The world was less of a blank slate, and it wasn't as focused on military expansion. It was more about feudal politics and plotting (although there was a pretty substantial war going at the end).

    Background wise, I'd like to keep the realm somewhat intact (at least to start) with just a plague, and then maybe hit them with a mini-ice age.

  6. #6
    Glad that you liked it. Now there's some explanation of it in order.

    When I made it, I thought of some geology/geography underlaying it.

    Since your initial theme was England, I came up with some basic areas that would resemble OTL England and played with their disposition a bit, then added some more areas of my own. I'll make a quick rundown of them:

    *Black: ancient mountains, ala Scotland (rough cliffs, inlets), it's the ancient foundation of the island and it's very eroded
    *Maroon: more recent folding, softer hills and some mountains, ala English Midlands
    *Green: recent formation plains from the surrounding mountains, with a SW-NW slop, very flat terrain, like the american great plains, the 2 large rivers end up in a marsh when meeting the western sea
    *Red: a mountain range formed by a hotspot, moving N, like the Hawaian islands with the northernmost islands still active (thus the smoky mountains )
    *Orange: a chain of volcanic islands (aka the Fireland), on the verge of the continental plate, like the Pacific fire rim. This was the area that fired up and caused the mini ice age

    And yes, the arrows represent wind, sea currents..., thus making the SE and the eastern shore more humid and the NW drier

    So you wanna northern wilderness. You want it attached to the main island? Make a chain of islands moving north? Or a single massive island (like Ireland)?

    Click image for larger version

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  7. #7
    Major Spitfire5793's Avatar
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    I'd play. I liked the old kingdom game
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Santiago View Post
    Glad that you liked it. Now there's some explanation of it in order.

    When I made it, I thought of some geology/geography underlaying it.

    Since your initial theme was England, I came up with some basic areas that would resemble OTL England and played with their disposition a bit, then added some more areas of my own. I'll make a quick rundown of them:

    *Black: ancient mountains, ala Scotland (rough cliffs, inlets), it's the ancient foundation of the island and it's very eroded
    *Maroon: more recent folding, softer hills and some mountains, ala English Midlands
    *Green: recent formation plains from the surrounding mountains, with a SW-NW slop, very flat terrain, like the american great plains, the 2 large rivers end up in a marsh when meeting the western sea
    *Red: a mountain range formed by a hotspot, moving N, like the Hawaian islands with the northernmost islands still active (thus the smoky mountains )
    *Orange: a chain of volcanic islands (aka the Fireland), on the verge of the continental plate, like the Pacific fire rim. This was the area that fired up and caused the mini ice age

    And yes, the arrows represent wind, sea currents..., thus making the SE and the eastern shore more humid and the NW drier

    So you wanna northern wilderness. You want it attached to the main island? Make a chain of islands moving north? Or a single massive island (like Ireland)?

    Attachment 53203
    I'd say have the wilderness attached to the main island, seperated by a wall-like mountain range. In the midst of this range is a big circular valley, like a giant impact crater or supervolcano caldera. This is the area I'd like for a haunted forest.

  9. #9
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    Stuff I've written so far

    Neumark

    The Fenlands
    The Fenlands are a region of swamps, bogs, and marshlands. Here the great Glaubourne flows slowly through the flat lands on its way from the mountains to the sea. The Crownway skirts the edge of the Fenlands on Harralds Causeway. There are few reliable roads into the Fenlands proper, and the interior itself is accessible only by boat. The Fenlands have frustrated would-be conquerors since time immemorial. The waters breed irritating flies, as well as snakes of many kinds and dire turtles that can be as big as a man.
    The people of the Fenlands are mainly First Men. The Old Faith is still quite strong here, and many Fenlanders believe very strongly in magic, curses and witchcraft. Fenlanders tend to live in small farmsteads. Fish and wetland plants provide important food sources. The lower classes are poor but also enjoy a great degree of freedom. The High Church has a strong presence in most of the larger villages, and the Tolan Monks have several monastic communities scattered through the area. These monasteries are known for producing philosophers and ascetics, and for beautifully illuminated manuscripts.
    In wartime, Fenlanders are infamous for their use of poison, and for avoiding open battle in favor of ambushes and raids. Heavy armor is rare, being both too expensive and impractical. Horses are in short supply. To those who value chivalry, Fenlanders are held in contempt as a ragged band of cowardly sneaks. In their own terrain, Fenlanders can be virtually undefeatable, but on open, solid ground their light infantry based armies are at a serious disadvantage.
    House Carr: Lords of Still Waters
    House Carr is the ruling house of the Fenlands. With roots in the Dawn Age, the Carrs have been challenged for dominance by other Fenland clans and attacked by outsiders. Yet in the end the Carrs have always come out of any crisis intact. “Lord (or Lady) of Still Waters” is the traditional title of the Carrs.
    The Carr emblem is the dire turtle. Their banner is the head and jaws of a dire turtle in black on a green field. Their words are “Strong, Steady, Deep.”
    Holdings
    Seat: Cluchdun (castle)
    The seat of House Carr is Cluchdun. An old, but strong, fortress, Cluchdun is seated on a bend in the River Abanmal, which was dammed to form a broad lake. By land it is accessible only via a narrow, winding pathway ending in a retractable bridge. Most traffic comes to and from Cluchdun via shallow-bottomed boats. Two water gates are secured by iron portcullis. Inside the walls buildings are linked via wooden walkways, with buildings being constructed either on stone piers or wooden stilts, as the Castle is built entirely in the water. Like much of the Fenlands, Cluchdun is prone to fogs from autumn through spring, especially at dawn and dusk.
    Illansall (town): A bustling town on the banks of the Glaubourne, Illansall is the main trading center linking the interior of the Fenlands to the rest of the world. Though the original town was clustered on an island thick with willow trees, the trees are mostly gone (except for one spectacular old willow in the town square) and the town has sprawled across wooden bridges to either side of the river. Dry by Fenland standards, the area still floods annually, and stinging insects can be a problem.
    Vassals:
    St Tola (monastery): The mother monastery of the Tolan monks, St Tola was a monk who escaped marauding Ostmen in the Heroic age, bringing priceless tomes and relics with him. He quickly attracted followers and students. St Tola and his successors earned a reputation for scholarship, both in spiritual and practical matters. St Tola himself is credited with codifying the local traditions of herbal medicine, copying them on numerous reedpaper scrolls. Tolan sacred texts are prized for their beautiful illuminations, made possible by inks derived from local plants and animals. Despite its prominence, the monestary itself remains a modest collection of daub and wattle buildings on an artificial island (known locally as a crannog). By design, it can only be reached by shallow-bottom boats or rafts.
    The Darkwood
    The Darkwood is a region with a sinister reputation. It’s a vast and ancient forest sprawling through an enormous valley in the White Mountains. The Darkwood Road is the only usable pathway over the mountains for a thousand leagues, yet most travelers choose to go around. The mountains cast long shadows over the wood, and the canopies of the trees blot out most of the sun. The wood is highly dangerous, those who leave the paths are easily lost and prey to the many strange and dangerous creatures legend says dwell there.
    Despite its terrors, the Darkwood is home to a small population of hardy settlers. These live in a few villages in rare clearings along the road. The woodsmen are free peasants of modest means, known for close knit communities and warm hospitality. They farm and raise livestock (particularly pigs) in the eaves of the forest. The Darkwood is also the only source of silversilk, a beautiful and strong fabric made from the webs of nightweaver spiders. Woodsmen are almost all followers of the High Church, as believers in the Old Faith believe the woods to be a place of dangerous magical forces. Ancient First Men barrows can be found in the mountains along the woods’ southern edge. This gives the southern pass its name, the Barrowgate.
    When mustered, the woodsmen can field a skilled, but small, force. The elite martial class is the Darkwood Rangers, full time servants of the Warden of the Wood. The Rangers are tasked with keeping the Darkwood Road open and containing the dangers within. The Rangers are widely considered the finest marksmen in the realm. Ordinary woodsmen are typically equipped in leather armor, sometimes punctuated by metal helmets. An axe or spear is the usual weapon, either alone or with a long shield.

    House Faye: Wardens of the Wood
    The ruling house of the Darkwood is House Faye. House Faye was granted the Darkwood in the immediate aftermath of the Conquest. In those days the White Mountains were the northern border of the Kingdom, and the Darkwood Road was often used by Wilderling raiding parties. Aldric Faye was given the title Warden of the Wood and tasked with defending the Barrowgate. Warden Aldric’s followers were the first men to actually dwell in the Darkwood, except for the legendary “Children of the Forest.”
    The emblem of House Faye is a spider web. Their banner is a white web on a black field. Their words are “Keep clear the way.”
    Members

    Aerlene "the Uncanny" Faye, nee Hithe, regent for the Warden. Aged 27, Aerlene is from an Uppland family of minor nobility. Petite, with long brown hair and deep brown eyes. She's the widow of late Warden Gerald, who was recently killed by the Creeping Death plague. She bore him two children: son Brandon, 10, and daughter Autumn, 6. A lifelong interest in mysticism has taken a rather unsettling turn since the plague, earning her the nickname "The Witch in the Wood." Most of the tales spread about her are exaggeration and rumors.

    Warden Brandon, aged 10. An adventurous boy fond of riding horses and climbing trees.

    Autumn, aged 6. A shy girl fond of dancing.
    Holdings
    Seat: Whitestone (castle and town)
    Founded by Alder Faye in 7 AC (After Conquest), Whitestone is located at almost the exact center of the wood. As his scouts explored the unsettled wilderness, they encountered a mysterious ring of huge white stones. Inside the ring, none of the ominous trees grew, creating an oasis of light and air. Faye built his castle on the site, incorporating the white monoliths into its outer wall. Modest compared to the seats of other great lords, Whitestone is a simple circular stone curtain wall surrounding a stout square keep.

    Vassals:
    Barrowgate (castle)
    Located in the mountain pass of the same name, Barrowgate guards the southern edge of the wood. A simple, stern castle, Barrowgate is a single stone tower of four stories, surrounded by a dry stone bawn wall roughly as tall as a man. Barrowgate is home to a garrison of Rangers and is an important stop on the Darkwood Road.
    Norwald
    Norwald is one of the youngest provinces in the kingdom. This densely wooded region north of the White Mountains is watered by the mighty Snowmelt. Winters are long and harsh, but the rivers are full of fish, the woods abound in game and the soil quite fertile despite the short growing season. These qualities are what attracted the Wilderlings, who live in their largest bands along the river valley.
    Winter and mountain sheltered the Wilderlings for more than two centuries. Raiding parties would cross into Neumark, raiding frontier villages and eluding pursuers as they returned with captives and plunder. Various lords of the northern lands would sometimes launch retaliatory raids, but these were always constrained by the need to be back south of the mountains before the snows came.
    But roughly 50 years ago, Ser Walder Alton, second son of a landed knight near the Uppland border, began an unlikely campaign to change that. After a particularly damaging raid in late summer 247 AC, Ser Alton rode north as part of a retaliatory expedition. But rather than depart south in the autumn, Ser Walder persuaded several other young and ambitious knights, men and arms and archers to do the unthinkable; continue the campaign through the winter. Over the objection of his father and his liege lord, Ser Walder’s band struck out on their own.
    Ser Walder the Hunter’s conquests and adventures in Norwald have since been the subject of many songs, legends and tall tales. What is certainly not myth is that Alton’s band, which numbered no more than 200, proved wildly successful. Wilderlings were accustomed to being safe from Neumarkers in the winter, allowing the young knight to take many villages by surprise. Some tribes allied with Alton, trading fealty for protection against rivals. By the spring of 248, he had carved a lordship out of the wilderness that included most of the Wilderling lands of the lower Snowmelt valley. His reputation attracted further followers, mostly other young knights and adventurers without prospects in the south. These men, combined with his Wilderling vassals, swelled his ranks and fueled still further conquests. By 250, Ser Walder’s conquests stretched as far as the northern end of the Darkwood Road. Loyal knights were anchoring the conquests with new castles, mainly wooden motte-and-bailey style. Ser Walder had made the Wilderling village of ((something Finnish)) his personal seat, and was speedily building a fortress of his own. Some had taken to calling him the King in the North.
    King Edmund II, equally impressed by the conquest and alarmed at the Hunter’s independence, led a large expedition north by sea in summer 253. The nominal purpose of the expedition was to bolster Ser Walder’s efforts against the Wilderlings; the true purpose was to curtail any talk of a crown for Ser Walder. Ser Walder swore fealty to the King of Neumark, and in return was confirmed in his lands and granted the title Lord of Winter.
    In the days since, the rate of expansion on the kingdom’s northern frontier has largely fallen to other lords, typically sent with royal backing. Consolidation, defense and settlement have been the chief occupation of the new rulers. A network of new castles has sprouted, and merchants and missionaries have built a serious foothold. Most of the Wilderling chiefs that allied themselves to House Alton are now counted as lords of Neumark, and have at least nominally embraced the High Church. But the woods are still filled with clans that have not bent the knee. Most of the best farmland has been granted to Ser Walder’s original companions or their descendants. These have adopted some usefull aspects of Wilderling culture (such as snowshoes, saunas, and sleighs drawn by reindeer or packs of dogs) but retain their distinct, southern identity.
    In warfare Norwald fields a mixture of fierce, but lightly armored wilderling foot and a more typically Neumarkian force of knights, men and arms, and archers. Since the country is not well suited to breeding and upkeep of large warhorses, the number and quality of knights is not on par with southern houses. Most Norwald cavalry are lightly armored and mounted on smaller, but hardy horses. These are well suited to defending the frontier, but lack the overwhelming power of true knights.
    House Alton: Lords of Winter
    Though relative newcomers to the high nobility, House Alton commands a great deal of respect. They are known for their skill at, and fondness for, hunting. Their sigil is a stag skull with golden antlers. Their words are “One shot.”
    Members
    Lord Hugh Fitz-Walder: age 47. Succeeded his father after he was killed while bear-hunting in 294 AC.
    Lady Aamu (nee Kvaenat): Age 30. A sister of one of Lord Walder’s Wilderling vassals, aunt of the present generation of House Kvaenat.
    Robert Fitz-Hugh: age 16. Heir apparent
    Ralf Fitz-Hugh: age 14
    Matilda Fitz-Hugh: age 13
    Walda Fitz-Hugh: age 8
    Ser Richard Fitz-Walter: age 44. Lord Hugh’s brother
    Lady Ansa (nee Mustapata): age 24. Daughter of Otso “the Old” Mustapata by his third wife.
    Otto Fitz-Richard: age 9
    Emma Fitz-Richard: age 5

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Deaghaidh View Post
    I'd say have the wilderness attached to the main island, seperated by a wall-like mountain range. In the midst of this range is a big circular valley, like a giant impact crater or supervolcano caldera. This is the area I'd like for a haunted forest.
    Like this or a bit bigger?

    Click image for larger version

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  11. #11
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    Still looks great. I am very interested
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  12. #12
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    Seems very fun to me.
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  13. #13
    So, I've digitalized the map. And did a localization test of the places mentioned.

    The brownish line is the main road.




    EDIT: IMHO, the capital would be neat by the upper Glauborne: inland, more or less in the geographical center and close to the sea yet defended by the southern mountains
    Last edited by Mr. Santiago; 29-04-2012 at 06:31.
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  14. #14
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    Looks great I'm interested.
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Santiago View Post
    So, I've digitalized the map. And did a localization test of the places mentioned.

    The brownish line is the main road.




    EDIT: IMHO, the capital would be neat by the upper Glauborne: inland, more or less in the geographical center and close to the sea yet defended by the southern mountains
    This is truly awesome

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Santiago View Post

    EDIT: IMHO, the capital would be neat by the upper Glauborne: inland, more or less in the geographical center and close to the sea yet defended by the southern mountains
    I'd rather see the capitol on the southernmost river system, just between the confluence of tributaries and the start of the delta region. My reasons are twofold, 1. I want the Fenlands, Uppland and Norwald to be a relatively remote region where crown power is fairly weak. The second is that the history I'm working on calls for a conqueror to come from the "France" analog like William the Conqueror. Coming from the south, he'd logically make his center of power in the best parts of the south. That southern river valley has solid natural defenses without being isolated from the rest of the country.

    The upper Glaubourne is a good place for a city though.

    General outline of history is:
    An ancient "celtic" age
    A subsequent "Roman" age
    An "Anglo-Saxon/Viking" age
    The current, "Norman" era

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Deaghaidh View Post
    I'd rather see the capitol on the southernmost river system, just between the confluence of tributaries and the start of the delta region. My reasons are twofold, 1. I want the Fenlands, Uppland and Norwald to be a relatively remote region where crown power is fairly weak. The second is that the history I'm working on calls for a conqueror to come from the "France" analog like William the Conqueror. Coming from the south, he'd logically make his center of power in the best parts of the south. That southern river valley has solid natural defenses without being isolated from the rest of the country.

    The upper Glaubourne is a good place for a city though.

    General outline of history is:
    An ancient "celtic" age
    A subsequent "Roman" age
    An "Anglo-Saxon/Viking" age
    The current, "Norman" era
    K
    In the meantime, I'm filling the middle of the island, east of the Fens... Will post it soon, I've almost completed it.

    And now it's complete, feel free to change/adapt anything:



    The Middlands

    Neumark's bread basket, washed by both the Glauborne and the Abanmal. The flatlands slowly start rising towards the southern mountains, and hills become more often and pronounced as one journeys towards the south. Woods are relatively scarce so the land is covered by a thick blanket of grass that can easily reach a grown man's chest. Along it's roads the middlanders have settled in their farmhouses, each can home an extended family of up to 40 relatives under the same roof. Each of them is surrounded by a short stone wall, followed by the wheat fields and then the wilderness, where the region's famed horses run free. The Middland's light cavalry has won many battles for it's liege.

    House Harrald: Rulers of the area since before the Conquest. Once they were called the richest man of Neumark, but the familiy's fortune has degenerated with time, specially thanks to their practice of inbreeding between the branches of the House, to keep the holdings intact. The current Lord is Edward, fifth of the name, aged 66, known in Neumark's halls as 'the Simple' and in Neumark's alleys as 'the Idiot'. Prone to give money to any passing alchemist or troubadour, many agree that his only success was marrying a rich burger's daughter out of love, Annabella (41). She was instrumental in moving the Duke from Glorket to Stonewall, where his 'eccentricities' could be kept under a tight leash.
    The burger's blood was stronger than the decaying royal one and all their issue strongly ressembles her. All hopes where laid on their firstborne, Guy, until he fell victim of the plague. However, his two younger sisters, Emma (19) and Annabella (17) survived and are yet unmarried. Now that Edward's death is close, the future of the house still looks bleak.
    Their sigil is a horse rampant, and their motto, 'Speed is my strength'

    Glorket (city)
    If the Middlands are Neumark's breadbasket, then Glorket (a derivation from Market-on-the-Glauborne) is where the bread is wheighed, measured and sold. Initialy a small castle on a hill by the river, it's turned into an active trading hub. Thanks to the decadence of the house of Harrald, the burgers are gaining more freedom. Rumours go that they are willing to become a chartered city, if they can gain (or buy) the King's favour.

    Stonewall (castle)
    Built where the Crownway turns east to avoid the Fenlands the castle is a reminder of richer days, since all the stone for its massive walls and five towers was ferried from the Upper Glauborne, then overland to the site, as the site is close to the marshes and no suitable rock could be found. However, it was not the house's last work, as they built the stretch of the road that goes to the Abanmal, over an extense marsh deemed as impassable and is known as the Harralds Causeway to this day.
    Wheelwright (town)
    A small township in the middle of the flatlands, it concentrates the activity of the nearby farms. Caravans carrying wool and wheat depart to Glorket every week. The only remarkable point is the large cathedral built by the High Church a century ago.
    Amerton (town)
    It began as an inn over the road to the capitol. With time it grew slowly and now it's a community of a few thousand souls, trading with both the travelers and nearby farmers

    Bernford

    A rather small county compared to it's neighbours, here the foothills of the Mist Mountains are covered by a thick forest where the boar, the bear and the deer are plenty. It's people are skilled hunters. The area is attached to the Middlands

    King's Lodge (castle)
    Initially hunting lodge in the middle of the woods, it got its name when Leothric spent the summer of 142 AC hunting there, under an invitation from the Lord Harrald. To mark the ocasion, the lodge was expanded and a wooden wall was built surrounding it, along with a few towers, hence earning the category of Castle
    St. Collin (town & monastery)
    Seeking isolation for his studies, St. Colin created the small abbey in a small valley, with a narrow road connecting it to lake Bern. The monastery grew and now it has a small village attached to it, to mind for the monk's worldly matters and liberate them for their contemplation.
    So, the Duke is rather rich, but he's an heirless idiot, unstable enough?
    Last edited by Mr. Santiago; 29-04-2012 at 22:40.
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  18. #18
    High King Deaghaidh's Avatar
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    Ok, so this is the general idea for the south, apologies for the crappy paint.

    The Crownlands being the direct demense of the King. The Dawnlands as the ruling house of the south-eastern coast. Summervale being a wealthy lordship centered on the Sumerwyne River valley.

    Still leaves a good deal of white space. I can see a major lordship along the southern coast between the crownlands, the mountains and the Dawnlands. The Islands off the west coast could easily be another one. Otherwise I'm running out of ideas, so submissions welcome!

    I have crests for the Dawnlands and Summervale. The Dawnlands crest is a silver sword over three red suns, with the motto "Par vigilance, paix." (credit to Thirdfain). Still need a good dynasty name and likewise names for holdings (particularly their main castle). They're a house with their roots in the conquest and close ties to the royal house. Summervale's crest is this:
    (Credit Gen. Schurmann) with the motto "Every rose has thorns." They're the High Chivalry house, fames for knights, tourneys, courtly love and troubadours and whatnot.
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  19. #19
    High King Deaghaidh's Avatar
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    Loving the Midlands. In general it's important to balance the player lordships in terms of wealth, prestige, and military strength, so that no one house has an unfair advantage. House Harrald is well balanced, fairly wealthy and with an old dynasty, but clearly low in prestige with its simpleton lord and bourgoise lady.

    Bernford is meant to be a vassal of Midland, correct?

  20. #20
    Yup, Bernford's a vassal of Midland.
    I thought about placing a bastard son of Harrald as the 'administrator' of Bernford, creating the possibility of placing him as a possible heir, but wasn't too certain about it.
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