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Why doesn't Grananda get unique missions to conquer spain and italy?

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Europa Universalis III 46143 EU3 - After Action Reports (AAR)
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Slym said:
Why do the Byzantines get all the historically inaccurate fun?

Why isn't there a gigantic amount of potential gameplay about the Muslims reconquering these areas? Seems unfair, s'all I'm saying.
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I fully agree with you in spirit, and frankly it is unfair - but the way the game works, unfortunately, it's actually far harder to survive as Granada than as Byzantium (despite historically Granada being far, far more powerful and resilient than Byzantium at this point), which coupled with the generally Christian-centric focus of the game means that Byzantium gets as many unique missions and decisions as the most major countries in the game and Granada just gets the complete weirdness of missions intended for Catholic Spain if any skilled/lucky human player deconquistas the peninsula.

Still, if anything was to be fixed by the devs, the terrible situation where Castille by itself can overrun Granada and North Africa in 10 years would have to be the first priority.

That being said, a mod which aimed to give every country tag the same level of flavour and unique missions/decisions as Byzantium has would pretty much be the best thing ever, IMO.
 
lucaluca said:
I mean, Roman Empire and Emirate of Granada... it's like comparing France to Duchy of Parma...
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Eh, the Eastern Roman Empire was awesome, but al-Andalus in its heyday was also pretty awesome, and Islamic Spain lasted for almost eight hundred years, a pretty respectable time. And really, Granada was just as tied to al-Andalus as the pitiful remnants of the briefly resurrected Byzantine Empire in 1399 were tied to the Roman Empire.
 
Kyoumen said:
That being said, a mod which aimed to give every country tag the same level of flavour and unique missions/decisions as Byzantium has would pretty much be the best thing ever, IMO.
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Basically the entire mission system is somewhat poorly designed. A mod that would aim to add flavor by adding missions for all nation tags (let say ALL tags too) would be, for the most part, very, very useless.

The way missions work is a dynamic context driven combination of triggers.

This game has so many variables, that its pretty much impossible to predict their status (or even describe it via mission trigger syntax) in order for these missions to fire.

Ill give you an example:

In vanilla Austria is basically made up of 3 TAGs: you have Austria itself around Wien and then you have Styria (sp?) and Tirol. Once those 2 are force released from Austria, its overall power is cut by 1/3 (yes it still retains lots of base tax, but losing provinces means losing land force limit size = making you weaker).

Lets say you wrote a mission for Austria where you want it to conquer (either annex or vassalise) a neighbor, Hungary or Bohemia. It makes sense for this mission to trigger only if Austria is strong, either same size or bigger than target country. Now, if its reduced in size to 1/3 of its power, these missions that do not work dynamically taking CONTEXT into account and thus never canceling, basically break the game. Lets face it, Austria thats 2-3 provinces sized, and not played by human, has about 0% chance of conquering anything.

With that said, unless you can reliably predict the trigger variables (as you can if you write missions for different game start dates) you simply cannot create missions with respect for every game dynamics that make sense. If you start a game as Granada in 1399. only God knows where you may expand; you may choose to guarantee something in Italy, get dragged in a war and annex a province over there, which creates a whole new context for your country. It is nearly impossible to cover all that via missions. Note that i said "nearly", it is possible, only it would take so much effort and time to debug, that i doubt its even worth it.
 
DanubianCossak said:
Long post
Click to expand...

It's all cute and lovely but completely unreleted to the topic. Adding one or three missions for Granada is a matter of hours at best (they don't have to be as creative as Pentarchy, there are lots of almost identical nation-specific missions where the only differences are tags and province numbers - only basic debugging is really needed), adding Al-Andalus or some other decisions is only a bit more complicated. And there are dozens of mods that Paradox is free to borrow from to cut down time.

We all know exactly what happens to Granada in every game and most missions don't go far beyond immediate expansion and perhaps some colonisation and royal marriages, so there's no tradition of pondering what-if when creating new missions to consider.

The way missions really work is a static context driven by a limited number of triggers.

Let me give you an example:

Code: 
reclaim_the_empire = {
	
	type = country

	allow = {
		tag = HAB
		is_emperor = no
		female = no
		regency = no
		not = { government = republic }
		134 = {
			hre = yes # Vienna is still part of the HRE
		}
	}
	abort = {
		or = {
			regency = yes
			female = yes
			government = republic
			134 = {
				hre = no
			}
		}
	}
	success = {
		is_emperor = yes
	}
	chance = {
		factor = 1000
	}
	effect = {
		prestige = 0.1
	}
}

This mission can fire for theocracies yet it didn't break the game.

Code: 
subjugate_bohemia = {
	
	type = country

	allow = {
		tag = HAB
		exists = BOH
		year = 1500
		is_lesser_in_union = no
		is_subject = no
		BOH = {
			is_emperor = no
			neighbour = this
			not = { vassal_of = HAB }
			not = { num_of_cities = this }
			is_lesser_in_union = no
			is_subject = no
		}
	}
	abort = {
		or = {
			is_lesser_in_union = yes
			is_subject = yes
			not = { exists = BOH }
			AND = {
				BOH = { is_lesser_in_union = yes }
				NOT = { senior_union_with = BOH }
			}
		}
	}
	success = {
		senior_union_with = BOH
	}
	chance = {
		factor = 1000
		modifier = {
			factor = 2
			not = { relation = { who = BOH value = 0 } }
		}
	}
	immediate = {
		casus_belli = {
			type = cb_restore_personal_union
			months = 120
			target = BOH
		}
	}
	abort_effect = {
		remove_casus_belli = {
			type = cb_restore_personal_union
			target = BOH
		}
	}
	effect = {
		prestige = 0.1
		remove_casus_belli = {
			type = cb_restore_personal_union
			target = BOH
		}
	}
}

subjugate_hungary = {
	
	type = country

	allow = {
		tag = HAB
		exists = HUN
		year = 1500
		is_lesser_in_union = no
		is_subject = no
		HUN = {
			is_emperor = no
			neighbour = this
			not = { vassal_of = HAB }
			not = { num_of_cities = this }
			is_lesser_in_union = no
			is_subject = no
		}
	}
	abort = {
		or = {
			is_lesser_in_union = yes
			is_subject = yes
			not = { exists = HUN }
			AND = {
				HUN = { is_lesser_in_union = yes }
				NOT = { senior_union_with = HUN }
			}
		}
	}
	success = {
		senior_union_with = HUN
	}
	chance = {
		factor = 1000
		modifier = {
			factor = 2
			not = { relation = { who = HUN value = 0 } }
		}
	}
	immediate = {
		casus_belli = {
			type = cb_restore_personal_union
			months = 120
			target = HUN
		}
	}
	abort_effect = {
		remove_casus_belli = {
			type = cb_restore_personal_union
			target = HUN
		}
	}
	effect = {
		prestige = 0.1
		remove_casus_belli = {
			type = cb_restore_personal_union
			target = HUN
		}
	}
}

subjugate_burgundy = {
        
        type = country

        allow = {
			tag = HAB
			exists = BUR
			is_lesser_in_union = no
			is_subject = no
			BUR = {
				neighbour = this
				not = { num_of_cities = this }
				is_lesser_in_union = no
				is_subject = no
			}
        }
        abort = {
			or = {
				is_lesser_in_union = yes
				is_subject = yes
				not = { exists = BUR }
				AND = {
						BUR = { is_lesser_in_union = yes }
						not = { BUR = { junior_union_with = THIS } }
				}
				BUR = { is_subject = yes }
            }
        }
        success = {
                senior_union_with = BUR
        }
        chance = {
                factor = 1000
                modifier = {
                        factor = 2
                        not = { relation = { who = BUR value = 0 } }
                }
        }
        immediate = {
                casus_belli = {
                        type = cb_restore_personal_union
                        months = 180
                        target = BUR
                }
        }
        abort_effect = {
                remove_casus_belli = {
                        type = cb_restore_personal_union
                        target = BUR
                }
        }
        effect = {
                prestige = 0.1
                remove_casus_belli = {
                        type = cb_restore_personal_union
                        target = BUR
                }
        }
}

An almost copy-paste with changed tags.

Did you know that there was a Danish mission to retake a province that was targeting a wrong province ever since In Nomine 3.0 and if I didn't notice that by accident nobody would know to this day? Most players play the game very similarly which actually make it quite simple to create missions that can even break the game and never ever see it broken by anyone. It's really not a problem if 0,1% of players will experience some strange situation.
 
Last edited:
Me_ said:
Long post
Click to expand...

Did you even read what i wrote? You are talking about a completely different thing compared to what i said in my replay to a suggestion on a mod adding specific missions for nation tags.

edit - nevermind i think you quoted another post.
 
That's a good point. I think Granada should have free cores on all Iberia except the northern coast which is has conquest missions on. At the same time, Morocco and Algiers should be allowed to form Granada to get the cores (condition would be to have Andalusia, Cordoba, and Granada conquered and to have the Berber or Magreb Arabic culture).
 
DanubianCossak said:
hence when EU3 was under development, one of the devs sat down and wrote these missions.
Click to expand...
More accurately, when In Nomine was under development; prior to IN the game had no BYZ tag defined and started in 1453. (Not to mention that there were no missions prior to IN.) Players' desire to play BYZ was almost certainly a large factor in moving the date back to 1399.
BYZ popularity extends back to EU2.
 
ywhtptgtfo said:
That's a good point. I think Granada should have free cores on all Iberia except the northern coast which is has conquest missions on. At the same time, Morocco and Algiers should be allowed to form Granada to get the cores (condition would be to have Andalusia, Cordoba, and Granada conquered and to have the Berber or Magreb Arabic culture).
Click to expand...

I like this idea.

To expand on this, it would be cool if Andaluisan was instead Maghreb Arabic culture (iirc that is the name of it that Morocco and Algiers have). Then have Arabic and Iberian have a reduced mtth for culture spread like with Russia/Tartars or Greek/Turks. Then have the option to reclaim Granada, or Al-Andalus, or the Almohad, or the Caliphate of Cordoba for all Maghreb Arabic cultures. Maybe give cores on Morocco, Algiers, and southern spain when you form it. Using http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Almohad1200.png as reference.

This isn't that crazy. Byzantium has cores on territory/ missions to conquer places they didn't have for hundreds of years before that also.
 
ywhtptgtfo said:
That's a good point. I think Granada should have free cores on all Iberia except the northern coast which is has conquest missions on. At the same time, Morocco and Algiers should be allowed to form Granada to get the cores (condition would be to have Andalusia, Cordoba, and Granada conquered and to have the Berber or Magreb Arabic culture).
Click to expand...

Why? The Grenadines never ruled over any more of Spain than they do in the 1399 start. GRA is a 'revolter' from the Almohad empire, which is represented in EU3 by Fes (same flag). Giving Granada cores on the rest of Iberia is like giving Trebizond cores on Constantinople.


The ability to form an Al-Andalus nation would be good, but considering how difficult that is, I think that a tag shouldn't really be wasted on it.
 
Granada survived until 1492. Al-Andalus (Muslim Iberia) lasted almost 8 centuries. It's greatest extent encompassed most of modern day Spain except for patches of the northern mountains, all of modern day Portugal, and most of Southern France. If the Muslim powers had been united in a Jihad against the Christian Iberians, then we might have had a much different result today. I do not believe it so crazy to throw in a mission to reform Al-Andalusa, which at one point represented the peak of Judeo-Christian-Islamic cooperation during that millennium.
 
JaceX said:
Granada survived until 1492. Al-Andalus (Muslim Iberia) lasted almost 8 centuries. It's greatest extent encompassed most of modern day Spain except for patches of the northern mountains, all of modern day Portugal, and most of Southern France. If the Muslim powers had been united in a Jihad against the Christian Iberians, then we might have had a much different result today. I do not believe it so crazy to throw in a mission to reform Al-Andalusa, which at one point represented the peak of Judeo-Christian-Islamic cooperation during that millennium.
Click to expand...

And it was feasable

The Morisco Revolt (1568−1571), also known as War of Las Alpujarras or Revolt of Las Alpujarras, in what is now Andalusia in southern Spain, was a rebellion against the Crown of Castile by the remaining Muslim converts to Christianity from the Kingdom of Granada.

If it wasn't for the not so bright and drunkard of a Sultan (called Selim the second), who rather wanted to conquer its favorite wine territory then supporting this revolt... :)
Things could have changed a lot with the help of the Ottomans and the North Africans.

My own personal view is that Granada deserves some attention in EU3. It represented a great civilization.
 
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but Granada is not heir to Al-andalus in my knowledge... Granada is heir to the Almoravids/Almohads. Byzantium in 1399 comes from Nicea which comes from Byzantium, so it was still the same Roman Empire of 1000 years previous.
 
lucaluca said:
but Granada is not heir to Al-andalus in my knowledge... Granada is heir to the Almoravids/Almohads. Byzantium in 1399 comes from Nicea which comes from Byzantium, so it was still the same Roman Empire of 1000 years previous.
Click to expand...

Al-Andalus is a general term for Islamic Spain, not a specific political entity.
 
Nerga said:
I like this idea.

To expand on this, it would be cool if Andaluisan was instead Maghreb Arabic culture (iirc that is the name of it that Morocco and Algiers have). Then have Arabic and Iberian have a reduced mtth for culture spread like with Russia/Tartars or Greek/Turks. Then have the option to reclaim Granada, or Al-Andalus, or the Almohad, or the Caliphate of Cordoba for all Maghreb Arabic cultures. Maybe give cores on Morocco, Algiers, and southern spain when you form it. Using http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Almohad1200.png as reference.

This isn't that crazy. Byzantium has cores on territory/ missions to conquer places they didn't have for hundreds of years before that also.
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IIRC most of the Byz cores in 1399 are Greek/Orthodox with Albania being the exception I remember. And people complain about that. So IMO any cores given to Granada in should be 80% or more same culture and religion as their capital. Having people willing to rejoin you should figure in at least some of your cores. In the Byz case Greek nationalism never really died. That's why there is a modern Greece.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_War_of_Independence
 
lucaluca said:
but Granada is not heir to Al-andalus in my knowledge... Granada is heir to the Almoravids/Almohads. Byzantium in 1399 comes from Nicea which comes from Byzantium, so it was still the same Roman Empire of 1000 years previous.
Click to expand...

The Taifa (later Emirate) of Cordoba was first formed in 1013 during the collapse of the caliphate of Cordoba (then annexed by the Almohads later, then later still reemerged as an ally to Castille). Similarly, the Empire of Nicaea formed in 1204 during the collapse of the Eastern Roman Empire. If a surging Granada took back most of the territory of the Umayyad Caliphate in Iberia, there's very little doubt they would have legitimised their rule by claiming to be their successors, much as Nicaea did when it retook Constantinople, even though it was ruled by the Laskaris family and the last legitimate Roman Emperor had been of the Doukas family.

Granada should probably have cores on the other Andalusian states, though the frequent Christian revolter Granadas often gain them through patriot rebels regardless. They also probably ought to have a core on Ceuta, which they'd conquered and lost several times in the century preceding the start of EUIII.

However, again, none of that's terribly meaningful as long as they have no significant ability to resist the day 1 DOW by Castille.
 
Restless Native said:
The "Byzantines" seem to be very popular among the gaming community here, so much so that there have been accusations of the developers pandering to these people by over focusing on them too much, giving them cores on things they lost centuries ago and giving them a bonus to culture spreading.
I'm not sure about that but I would agree they seem to have a lot of focus for their size and there historical sell by date. I sense an argument coming in this thread.
A mod that focuses on increasing missions for fringe or non-european countries would be a nice idea.
Click to expand...

PiriReis said:
Can we include the Ottomans bad performance in EU3 in this theory? :)
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Because we JUST had a horrible thread about it, thats why not
 
Instead of arguing over Andalus, Granda and Byzantine importance and heritage, why dont you guys instead post a list of missions you think should be available.

If there was such a list in this thread i would most likely make all missions that make sense and add them to MPM. From there its a rather simple task to adjust them for vanilla game (just delete all the extra provinces).
 
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