How much will Alternate History be possible?

[Ivashanko]

Lol, are you sure we're playing the same game?

MMtG is not deterministic, its realistic and plausible. You won't ever see Ryuku become a Great power but an English France is possible.

I made Ryuku a great power in MMtM before- even colonized California with them. I plan to do it again as soon as MMtG came out.

[Blaze86420]

I made Ryuku a great power in MMtM before- even colonized California with them. I plan to do it again as soon as MMtG came out.

You'll never see that done by the AI, that's all I meant.

[k_merse]

Let's just say, it's very unlikely. But from 100.000 scenario, it is possible that once it happens.

[Buladelu]

MM has a very big timeline. During this period many great Empires appeared and fallen. I don't get all this whining about ahistorical outcomes. How historical is Teuton Order that was send to christinize Lithuania transformed into greatest German state and in the end united Germany as a single great nation? How historical is tiny Muscowy fighting hordes and conquering all the Rus into biggest empire defeating every invader?

Most unplausible things in EU3 where mechanics added for "historical" purposes. Like that thing with you unable to just annex country you've conquered. When EU3 just went out there were no way to make you think before you click button "Annex France". Now with advanced economy, rebels, culture and infamy you can let player annex anything if he desires to dive into sea of infamy, destroyed trade and endless rebels. And he'd get plausible outcome of ruined country.

So France conquered by England is not ahistorical. Not allowing to do so is ahistorical just as much as making it easy or making it falloutless.

[thrashing mad]

MM has a very big timeline. During this period many great Empires appeared and fallen. I don't get all this whining about ahistorical outcomes. How historical is Teuton Order that was send to christinize Lithuania transformed into greatest German state and in the end united Germany as a single great nation? How historical is tiny Muscowy fighting hordes and conquering all the Rus into biggest empire defeating every invader?

Good point. I think that rise of Prussia is most incidental during that period - from collapsing Teutonic Order in 1400s, to minor vassal of Poland in 1500s, to personal union with Brandenburg in 1600s, to regional power taking advantage of decomposition of PLC in 1700s. With all these historical factors that shaped it's history it should be highly unlikely to have OTL Prussia after end of average MM game, though in the mod there was a lot of artificial events and stuff going in favour of such specific outcome (Pope demands TO released event or Prussian nationalism events). Hopefully, we can believe devs when they say that such deterministic, country specific stuff is gone (like lucky nations), though IIRC some of that sadly stayed (like inheritance of Burgundy).

England, Spain, France, or Ottoman Empire, maybe Muscovy/Russia are obviously quite powerful nations with a lot of potential, able to retain or expand their status from 1453 to 1820. Habsburgs, Prussia or Netherlands - not necessarily with 1453 PoD. They should be sometimes replaced by say - Scandinavia, Poland/PLC/Lithuania, Bohemia, Hungary or Burgundy, depending on the course of the game.

[Tornadoli]

MM has a very big timeline. During this period many great Empires appeared and fallen. I don't get all this whining about ahistorical outcomes. How historical is Teuton Order that was send to christinize Lithuania transformed into greatest German state and in the end united Germany as a single great nation? How historical is tiny Muscowy fighting hordes and conquering all the Rus into biggest empire defeating every invader?

Most unplausible things in EU3 where mechanics added for "historical" purposes. Like that thing with you unable to just annex country you've conquered. When EU3 just went out there were no way to make you think before you click button "Annex France". Now with advanced economy, rebels, culture and infamy you can let player annex anything if he desires to dive into sea of infamy, destroyed trade and endless rebels. And he'd get plausible outcome of ruined country.

So France conquered by England is not ahistorical. Not allowing to do so is ahistorical just as much as making it easy or making it falloutless.

Good point. I think that rise of Prussia is most incidental during that period - from collapsing Teutonic Order in 1400s, to minor vassal of Poland in 1500s, to personal union with Brandenburg in 1600s, to regional power taking advantage of decomposition of PLC in 1700s. With all these historical factors that shaped it's history it should be highly unlikely to have OTL Prussia after end of average MM game, though in the mod there was a lot of artificial events and stuff going in favour of such specific outcome (Pope demands TO released event or Prussian nationalism events). Hopefully, we can believe devs when they say that such deterministic, country specific stuff is gone (like lucky nations), though IIRC some of that sadly stayed (like inheritance of Burgundy).

England, Spain, France, or Ottoman Empire, maybe Muscovy/Russia are obviously quite powerful nations with a lot of potential, able to retain or expand their status from 1453 to 1820. Habsburgs, Prussia or Netherlands - not necessarily with 1453 PoD. They should be sometimes replaced by say - Scandinavia, Poland/PLC/Lithuania, Bohemia, Hungary or Burgundy, depending on the course of the game.

Exactly what I'm getting at. I don't want to see events that make it 90% likely for Prussia to form; or even to get specific unique decisions to lead down the path of Prussian formation. I'd just like to see a framework of generic mechanics, where of course the Prussian formation should be possible, but by far not the only outcome.

[Robmel]

How historical is Teuton Order that was send to christinize Lithuania transformed into greatest German state and in the end united Germany as a single great nation? How historical is tiny Muscowy fighting hordes and conquering all the Rus into biggest empire defeating every invader?

None of that is historical or true.
It was Brandenburg not "Teutonic Order -> Duchy of Prussia" that transformed into "greatest German state". Elector of Brandenburg was fortunate to inherit duchy of Prussia, because its last duke was mentally incapable and died without male successor. Later another elector of Brandenburg forged king title out of his most smallest and poorest province, after his predecessor was able to detach duchy from Polish crown vassalage with the help of Swedish arms.

In German minors history there are lot of similar events when state existence depended whether duke or count had any son and how many of them (gavelkind succession).
There were at least two moments during this game's timeframe when Habsburgs almost died out naturally.

Also "tiny" Muscovy was allied (not fighting against) with horde, under which protection it was able to conquer every Russian principality one by one.

[Buladelu]

None of that is historical or true.
It was Brandenburg not "Teutonic Order -> Duchy of Prussia" that transformed into "greatest German state". Elector of Brandenburg was fortunate to inherit duchy of Prussia, because its last duke was mentally incapable and died without male successor. Later another elector of Brandenburg forged king title out of his most smallest and poorest province, after his predecessor was able to detach duchy from Polish crown vassalage with the help of Swedish arms.

In German minors history there are lot of similar events when state existence depended whether duke or count had any son and how many of them (gavelkind succession).
There were at least two moments during this game's timeframe when Habsburgs almost died out naturally.

Also "tiny" Muscovy was allied (not fighting against) with horde, under which protection it was able to conquer every Russian principality one by one.

I may disagree with some points (especially on Muscovy and when it's rise to power started), but anyway, many events leading to those outcomes weren't decided by ages of history and weren't predetermined.

That's the big problem with Hearts of Iron, I think: many unbelievable crazy historical events (that were affected by luck and great people) are very easy to trigger in there, like that Munchen business. But it's history, and it's indeed harder to get to more "plausible" and predicted outcomes there.

Same thing for EU3: I started in 1399 and in 1750 I can suddenly enact Prussian army reform though my country development was nothing like real Prussia's.

Exactly what I'm getting. I don't want to see events that make it 90% likely for Prussia to form; or even to get specific unique decisions to lead down the path of Prussian formation. I'd just like to see a framework of generic mechanics, where of course the Prussian formation should be possible, but by far not the only outcome.

That's exactly what you're getting in MMtG.

[Ivashanko]

You'll never see that done by the AI, that's all I meant.

Oh sorry I realized that before. xD I just wanted to brag a little.

[Tornadoli]

I may disagree with some points (especially on Muscovy and when it's rise to power started), but anyway, many events leading to those outcomes weren't decided by ages of history and weren't predetermined.

That's the big problem with Hearts of Iron, I think: many unbelievable crazy historical events (that were affected by luck and great people) are very easy to trigger in there, like that Munchen business. But it's history, and it's indeed harder to get to more "plausible" and predicted outcomes there.

Same thing for EU3: I started in 1399 and in 1750 I can suddenly enact Prussian army reform though my country development was nothing like real Prussia's.

This really annoys me. Prussia didn't get these army reforms simply because it was Prussia, but because of certain causes, people, events, etc. This should be modeled.

That's exactly what you're getting in MMtG.

You mean, a generic framework with no unique events; or a plethora of country-specific events that more or less emulate history?

[Buladelu]

You mean, a generic framework with no unique events; or a plethora of country-specific events that more or less emulate history?

Yep. Developers say that country-specific content is minimal. There's still culture-specific content like unique units. I wonder how they'll model countries that developed by international trade (like Portugal and Spain) without country-specific mechanics like spice trade in MM.

[Buladelu]

You mean, a generic framework with no unique events; or a plethora of country-specific events that more or less emulate history?

Yep. Developers say that country-specific content is minimal. There's still culture-specific content like unique units. I wonder how they'll model countries that developed by international trade (like Portugal and Spain) without country-specific mechanics like spice trade in MM.

[Robmel]

Yep. Developers say that country-specific content is minimal. There's still culture-specific content like unique units. I wonder how they'll model countries that developed by international trade (like Portugal and Spain) without country-specific mechanics like spice trade in MM.

There should be geographically specific content. Like Large Atlantic countries were inclined for colonization. Eastern European (east of Elbe river) countries were inclined to develop serfdom.

[Buladelu]

There should be geographically specific content. Like Large Atlantic countries were inclined for colonization. Eastern European (east of Elbe river) countries were inclined to develop serfdom.

I remember playing Heir to the Throne MM mod as Portugal and getting some cheap decision. It granted me Goa. That kind of thing made me quit.

I'd like a historical game, but MM should have given me some historical info on how the hell do I get a province. And give me a choice to go unhistorical and still get something - like getting other port or rent small port without a province and still get benefits. I understand that western trade presence is hard to reflect with EU country border system (the province is yours or you can't do there anything) and I hope MM the game is better on that part.

[DrZoidberg]

I remember playing Heir to the Throne MM mod as Portugal and getting some cheap decision. It granted me Goa. That kind of thing made me quit.

I'd like a historical game, but MM should have given me some historical info on how the hell do I get a province. And give me a choice to go unhistorical and still get something - like getting other port or rent small port without a province and still get benefits. I understand that western trade presence is hard to reflect with EU country border system (the province is yours or you can't do there anything) and I hope MM the game is better on that part.

You got a decision. If you wanted to spend alot of cash to conquer a tradeport in Goa or if you didn't want to do it.
If you choose to not get Goa, you establish trade with India anyway and get tradebonuses. I think it's better to not conquer Goa. Goa is non-core, wrong culture, wrong religion and non-core center of trade gives you infamy.
There is plenty of eventtext of the historical info how you got the province, if you choose to conquer it by the event.

[Tornadoli]

You got a decision. If you wanted to spend alot of cash to conquer a tradeport in Goa or if you didn't want to do it.
If you choose to not get Goa, you establish trade with India anyway and get tradebonuses. I think it's better to not conquer Goa. Goa is non-core, wrong culture, wrong religion and non-core center of trade gives you infamy.
There is plenty of eventtext of the historical info how you got the province, if you choose to conquer it by the event.

Gah! But that is exactly what I do not want to see in this game! I don't want to be guided to conquer Goa specifically. I want there to be a system in place that would make it profitable for me to have some kind of presence in India; not some arbitrary event that gives me some arbitrary modifiers if I conquer Goa specifically.

[wertu234]

Gah! But that is exactly what I do not want to see in this game! I don't want to be guided to conquer Goa specifically. I want there to be a system in place that would make it profitable for me to have some kind of presence in India; not some arbitrary event that gives me some arbitrary modifiers if I conquer Goa specifically.

He was referring to a mod for EU III, not this game. Completely different things.

[Jaidal]

Gah! But that is exactly what I do not want to see in this game! I don't want to be guided to conquer Goa specifically. I want there to be a system in place that would make it profitable for me to have some kind of presence in India; not some arbitrary event that gives me some arbitrary modifiers if I conquer Goa specifically.

You are much more aligned philosophically with the Game Designers than you may believe.

[ikki]

sometimes its fun to throw a wrench or two into the world. Like a portugal that forgets about exploring the west, and instead conquers vandalia and continues by colonising and conquering the entire african continent.

Then move their capital to africa, while making everyone a good catholic portuguese.
And probly gifting the old portuguese provinces to spain, just to make a clean shift from the old into the new.

Covered in gold, indigo, ebony and ivory
..oh and plenty of slaves.. all 10+ million
(These slaves were told to serve their masters as if they were serving Christ, with morals, faithfulness, and respectfullness (Ephesians 6:5-8 KJV))

[thrashing mad]

sometimes its fun to throw a wrench or two into the world. Like a portugal that forgets about exploring the west, and instead conquers vandalia and continues by colonising and conquering the entire african continent.

Then move their capital to africa, while making everyone a good catholic portuguese.
And probly gifting the old portuguese provinces to spain, just to make a clean shift from the old into the new.

Covered in gold, indigo, ebony and ivory
..oh and plenty of slaves.. all 10+ million
(These slaves were told to serve their masters as if they were serving Christ, with morals, faithfulness, and respectfullness (Ephesians 6:5-8 KJV))

Yeah...as long as it's a little bit plausible.

I think that devs not commenting on this thread can be sadly answered by 'MMtG tries to recreate early 19th century world with England, France, Austria, Russia, and Prussia as the great powers.' It was already present in the mod where, for example, Poland-Lithuania had ridiciolous -5_everything "Polish_blob"modifier, while Portugal benefited from free exploration/colonization events, or event-freed Prussia received cores on Pomerelia out of blue. Or am I wrong?