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Thread: Why has the combat-AI become so much worse since SF?

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    Captain Wminus's Avatar
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    Why has the combat-AI become so much worse since SF?

    Back in 2011, I remember a murderous and relentless Soviet AI pushing me constantly when I played Germany in the 1944 Gotterdammenrung scenario. It was almost impossible to survive, let alone win (beat the USSR) on very hard difficulty, and I LOVED IT.

    But compare that AI with the garbage we have now. In my current '44 scenario, all the Soviets do is strategically redeploying their troops all over the place. I mean, seriously, it's ridiculous - half the Soviet divisions spend their time moving up and down the front, instead of attacking. If the Soviets DID attack and use their troops to full effect, they'd utterly roll over me. But, alas, it seems that the AI is unwilling to attack unless an attack starts at more than 50% progress, AND it has some fetish for constantly strat-redeploying divisions.

    Who agrees?

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    V g H Moderator Had a dad's Avatar
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    try peterhoi3's lua's here
    Why can't we give love that one more chance?

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    Captain Wminus's Avatar
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    meh I already use the lothos1.

    Anyway, LUAs don't do anything to combat AI (what combat tactics the AI use). It just changes the strategic AI (what it builds, researches etc.)

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    AHOI-Mod Series Developer Demi Moderator Chromos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wminus View Post
    meh I already use the lothos1.

    Anyway, LUAs don't do anything to combat AI (what combat tactics the AI use). It just changes the strategic AI (what it builds, researches etc.)
    It is a new optimzed lua.
    You should check out his suggestion thread and have alook at the stunnig results!
    Because the ai is like a "mad dog on steroids if given the right amount of units, and the changes of peterhoi3 makes sure the ai just build the right amount of units.
    So guess what will happen again to you..
    Also I recommend playing the '36 sceanrio as the others are not adopted well so far..

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  5. #5
    Field Marshal Alex_brunius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wminus View Post
    Back in 2011, I remember a murderous and relentless Soviet AI pushing me constantly when I played Germany in the 1944 Gotterdammenrung scenario. It was almost impossible to survive, let alone win (beat the USSR) on very hard difficulty, and I LOVED IT.
    The AI was made better at defending and using rearguards to prevent player encirclement's. It's possible this hampers it's offensive capabilities but defence should be the first priority since players in 95% of the time will be attacking the AI.

    Also consider the possibility that it is actually you that have become better, and not the AI that has become worse
    "A good plan, violently executed now, is better than a perfect plan next week." - Patton

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    V g H Moderator Had a dad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wminus View Post
    meh I already use the lothos1.

    Anyway, LUAs don't do anything to combat AI (what combat tactics the AI use). It just changes the strategic AI (what it builds, researches etc.)
    Speechless...

    and
    +1 to Chromos, may one day the rest of us join you on Earth
    +1 to Alex
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  7. #7
    Captain Wminus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex_brunius View Post
    The AI was made better at defending and using rearguards to prevent player encirclement's. It's possible this hampers it's offensive capabilities but defence should be the first priority since players in 95% of the time will be attacking the AI.

    Also consider the possibility that it is actually you that have become better, and not the AI that has become worse
    The AI should not do anything defensive, like attempts at defence in depth, when it has twice the power of the opponent. Just look at the number of divisions the Soviets get in the '44 Gotterdammenrung scenario, no way it should be on the defensive.

    Besides, wasn't there an issue with AI theatres set to "attacking" or even "blitzing" modes being too defensive?
    Last edited by Wminus; 21-04-2012 at 23:43.

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    V g H Moderator Had a dad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wminus View Post
    The AI should not do anything defensive, like attempts at defence in depth, when it has twice the power of the opponent. Just look at the number of divisions the Soviets get in the '44 Gotterdammenrung scenario, no way it should be on the defensive.

    Besides, wasn't there an issue with AI theatres set to "attacking" or even "blitzing" modes being too defensive?
    I may be wrong, but I think what Alex and Chromos are getting at along with the thread I pointed you to, is the game has evolved, and unfortunatly all resorces go into the 36 start, as that is what is most played and modded.

    Initially the AI was a bit attak orientated which left it open for gamey counter attacks (encirclements) so the AI was modified. Which is leading to some of the strat deployment you are seeing. Yes the ai has a long way to go for the scenarios, I'll give you that, but what is continued to be improved on is the overall game.

    The AI does SOOO much more than it use to, but it can leave it a bit meek.

    BTW,(this is meant for humor only) unless your brain is RAM without battery backup no matter what you will continue to improve as you play.

    If you have the time I'd suggest the new peterhoi3 lua's from a 36 start or look at some of the mods out there

    HPP has a beta for FTM-Slan
    August Storm - Jackda
    Chromos' AHOI
    BlackICE - Panzeroo
    ICE - still only for SF but Novacat is working on it and I've heard rumblings that Devildread is going to come back and help the mod he started

    There are others out there, and a couple threads on the user MOD section asking for suggestions, just look around, and you'll see a reply from Chromos that list almost all of them

    Anyways, hope some of this helps
    Why can't we give love that one more chance?

  9. #9
    I think the key issue is the AI when on the offensive should try encirclements itself rather than try to avoid one.

  10. #10
    Captain Wminus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Had a dad View Post
    I may be wrong, but I think what Alex and Chromos are getting at along with the thread I pointed you to, is the game has evolved, and unfortunatly all resorces go into the 36 start, as that is what is most played and modded.

    Initially the AI was a bit attak orientated which left it open for gamey counter attacks (encirclements) so the AI was modified. Which is leading to some of the strat deployment you are seeing. Yes the ai has a long way to go for the scenarios, I'll give you that, but what is continued to be improved on is the overall game.

    The AI does SOOO much more than it use to, but it can leave it a bit meek.

    BTW,(this is meant for humor only) unless your brain is RAM without battery backup no matter what you will continue to improve as you play.

    If you have the time I'd suggest the new peterhoi3 lua's from a 36 start or look at some of the mods out there

    HPP has a beta for FTM-Slan
    August Storm - Jackda
    Chromos' AHOI
    BlackICE - Panzeroo
    ICE - still only for SF but Novacat is working on it and I've heard rumblings that Devildread is going to come back and help the mod he started

    There are others out there, and a couple threads on the user MOD section asking for suggestions, just look around, and you'll see a reply from Chromos that list almost all of them

    Anyways, hope some of this helps
    From what I understood, Chromos was saying that better unit composition sometimes (almost always in the case of transports) changes the AI's combat tactics. Alex was saying PI miscoded the AI when trying to make it better at defence.. And even if they were talking about the encircle-exploit - so what? If the AI has a 2.5 to 1 advantage in divisions, like it does in the East at the start of the '44 scenario, it would be near-impossible to use the encircle "exploit". This is because the AI would just advance all over the front at a nice and steady pace. And if not, at worst (for the AI) it would just get itself into a war of attrition. Which I forced on the AI in every one of my '44 Gotterdammenrung games. And no, I'm not any better than I was b4, as I've barely played this game in the last year..

    Regardless, the AI is simply broken. Right now I'm seeing the AI shuffle infantry divisions from Odessa to Smolensk, at the same time as it's shuffling infantry divisions from Smolensk to Odessa - this has nothing to do with being cautious, just with being badly coded.

    Really, start up a 1944 Semper fi game as Germany, and you'll be lucky to survive. Start up a 1944 FTM game as Germany, and the Soviet AI does nothing but sit and watch.

    As for the mods: Yeah I'll check out the newest versions, though I would prefer if PI ironed out the bugs and exploits from vanilla. The kind of crude solutions the modders need to use, due to a lack of proper modding tools, seems so unaesthetic to me...
    Last edited by Wminus; 22-04-2012 at 01:45.

  11. #11
    AHOI-Mod Series Developer Demi Moderator Chromos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wminus View Post
    From what I understood, Chromos was saying that better unit composition sometimes (almost always in the case of transports) changes the AI's combat tactics.
    Had a dad is right. It is so, that if the Ai has the right amount of units, it acts like quite different.
    So you see quite some encirclements if the enemy is not retreating fast enough.
    There are two parts involved. The attacker and the defender. If the defender is smart enough(stance), he would avoid encirclement. If the defender is out for more a fight, he will losse maybe more units. In the end we are talking about 30*30km provinces..
    I've seen quite some encircle attemps while in many cases the ai managed to get out of it in time. Or break up the encirclement with counterattacks etc..
    The tactical ai(combat) is really good imho already. And the production ai does not affect the military-ai directly.
    To encircle, the attaker needs enough fast units. He gets them if he builds them. And in that case a better/different production is all that the ai needs as the rest is already in the game..

    Just give the changes of peterhoi3 a chance and test it with a '36 scen. Other startdates really didn't get much "love" in the past.

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  12. #12
    Hi Wminus,
    if you say that the Sowjet AI has become less aggressive in the 1944 scenario then this has nothing to do with modders
    or the production AI. For the production AI to have some effect it takes some time.
    Could be that the scenario has changed or indeed the AI has become less aggressive in certain situations.
    My feeling is that the combat AI has become better in FtM but I think your observation should be taken seriously.
    I never played the 1944 scenario because the Normandy invasion is broken (too easy to throw the Americans into the sea).

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    Reichsmarschall Paradox Dev Team Darkrenown's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chromos View Post
    Had a dad is right. It is so, that if the Ai has the right amount of units, it acts like quite different.
    But that's unrelated to the OP's issue, the AI building a bit more air units etc. isn't going to change their performance in the Gotterdammenrung scenario, certainly not for the first year or so and likely not even then since the already build units make up so great a % of the OOBs.
    Relentless madman.

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    AHOI-Mod Series Developer Demi Moderator Chromos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkrenown View Post
    But that's unrelated to the OP's issue, the AI building a bit more air units etc. isn't going to change their performance in the Gotterdammenrung scenario, certainly not for the first year or so and likely not even then since the already build units make up so great a % of the OOBs.
    Yes, you're right.
    It seems that I went a bit over the top lately trying to improve the game experience. All this lines of lua code running around my head.
    And I was just paying attention to the word "combat ai" and put up my normal '36 game experience with it. Wich is quite good with enough units.
    I only noticed such massive redeploy behavour if the ai has not "enough" units.
    Now that I reread the OP it is also clear to me that his problem must be somewhere else if it was way better with SF before and went only worse with FTM.

    I'll make some tests now on my own on this too.
    Maybe I can contribute something better then.

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    Field Marshal Cybvep's Avatar

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    The AI does not conduct blitzkrieg warfare - it advances on a broad front and uses flanking attacks (from multiple directions), but it it far too timid to form big encirclements and does not understand the concept of force concentration. Sometimes it manages to form encirclements by accident or when the enemy does not have enough forces to cover the whole front, but that's it. Overruns are more likely to happen, though.

    I agree that if the AI has enough troops, then it generally performs much better and can be a reasonably effective tactician. Still, in 1944 the Soviet Union does not lack troops, so that shouldn't be a problem in this scenario. I can confirm that the AI redeploys troops pointlessly far too often, but that happens both in SF and in FTM.

  16. #16
    Captain Wminus's Avatar
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    Cybver, such behaviour wasn't rampant as bad in SF... I mean, in my FTM Gotterdammenrung 1944 game the Soviet AI set its STAVKA theatre AI on "defensive" and this theatre AI is constantly, even several months after the startdate, mass-redeploying units.

    Quote Originally Posted by joeenochs View Post
    Hi Wminus,
    if you say that the Sowjet AI has become less aggressive in the 1944 scenario then this has nothing to do with modders
    or the production AI. For the production AI to have some effect it takes some time.
    Could be that the scenario has changed or indeed the AI has become less aggressive in certain situations.
    My feeling is that the combat AI has become better in FtM but I think your observation should be taken seriously.
    I never played the 1944 scenario because the Normandy invasion is broken (too easy to throw the Americans into the sea).
    I never suggested that, I actually specified the distinction between strategic and tactical AI. However, I did note that production of certain units like transports would effect the combat AI (like it doing more amphibious invasions due to an abundance of naval transports).

    Also, keep in mind that this problem is in no way exclusive to the Gotterdammenrung scenario. The AI constantly does this
    Last edited by Wminus; 24-04-2012 at 00:22.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Wminus View Post
    Cybver, such behaviour wasn't rampant in SF... I mean, in my Gotterdammenrung 1944 game the Soviet AI set its STAVKA theatre AI on "defensive" and this theatre AI is constantly, even several months after the startdate, mass-redeploying units.



    I never suggested that, I actually specified the distinction between strategic and tactical AI. However, I did note that production of certain units like transports would effect the combat AI (like it doing more amphibious invasions due to an abundance of naval transports).

    Also, keep in mind that this problem is in no way exclusive to the Gotterdammenrung scenario. The AI constantly does this
    My point was actually addressed to Chromos and not to you. See also the remark from Darkrenown to Chromos which basically says the same.
    Your observation should be easy to confirm (I am just to lazy to install Sempre FI) and if it is true looked into by the devs.
    Luckily Darkrenown seems to already look into it.

  18. #18
    In my opinion the AI have trubble controling bigger armies. When I set up Armies of more then 10 div, Ai makes the front to large without considering other armies in the flanks. And spends half the armie on constant stratigic redeployment back and forward without considering to keep the corps diffrent div within hq distance.

  19. #19
    Colonel Pj Fallon's Avatar
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    I heard that the AI is much improved from SF-> FTM.

    Does anyone know how its much Improved?
    East vs. West is cancelled. Will we ever get a cold war game?

  20. #20
    Random People SuiciSpai's Avatar
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    After several games in random hoi (where historical settings or outcome doesnt matter), i think that the (combat)AI has been improved a lot since SF. Just my two cents.

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