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I wasn't accurate in my post. I tried to say that the Sovs can't build a powerfull navy to fight the USN in 1941. I agree that in the long run and with victory over Euro-Axis, the USSR has more potential than Germany.

Yeah, 41 is s bit early for them to challenge any significant naval power. Even with infinite leadership, it just takes time to get the techs researched. That's the real limiting factor. Even with building ships purely for practicals to speed up research, your looking at years or research just to get the option to build a CV, nevermind a CV with anything resembling modern engines.

There's also the problem that unless you intend to take out Japan early, an early navy for the Soviets does nothing to help them. War with America can afford to wait until your are ready to play catch up anyway. :)
 
Wow. That were massive plans. Thanks, I now have hope. I'm thinking also of making most of my ships have very strong AA, so that the enemy CAG-s get caught in a hailstorm of bullets.

With 1 fleet of 1938 tech composed by 3BBs + 5 DDs, a few DDs in reserve, good naval doctrines for BBs/DDs and air support, you can sink the entire royal navy except CVs in 1-2 years. Or at least you will face them.

Make 2 or 3 fleets like this and the RN is over.

Always patrol/fight in air support area. Config the game to pause it when a naval fight starts, then trow in your air support. INTs if you fight a CV and try to escape as fast as posible. NAVs if you fight a non-CV fleet and sink them all.
 
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As for killing the RN, their ships are old and crappy. Their BBs are from the 1920s. Their CVs are a bit of a pain, but they aren't invincible. 3xBB,5xDD fleets with 1938-1940 techs aught to kill 75% of the RN without too much trouble. The CVs will be harder to pin down, and some folks here have some good suggestions. My only addition would be that maybe NAVs combined with suckering the CVs near your airfields would be the best option.

How interesting. A BB plus DD fleet can take out a CV with 1938 techs unlocked? Do you find that BC's are not worth building versus the all powerful BB? Since you are talking about unlocking 1938 techs, I assume this means waiting on a decisive naval engagement until around late 1940?
 
What are good options for someone wanting to build a Kriegsmarine or Soviet Navy which can fight the opposing navies in the title, and facilitate amphibious invasions? Only condition: no carriers.

I'm just curious, why no carriers? A beat-em-in-a-funny-way project or a tech issue? Plenty of good answers, so I'll abstain from forcing my folksy wisdom on you.

Their CVs are a bit of a pain, but they aren't invincible.

Nope, not till 1980 at least :p (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Invincible_(R05))
 
How interesting. A BB plus DD fleet can take out a CV with 1938 techs unlocked? Do you find that BC's are not worth building versus the all powerful BB? Since you are talking about unlocking 1938 techs, I assume this means waiting on a decisive naval engagement until around late 1940?

You probably wont even get in range of a CV. Maybe if you have luck. If you make BBs/DDs fleets, the best you can do vs CV fleets is to send the INTs into the fight, try to retire from combat and go for repairs.
Your modern BBs/DDs fleet/s will be very destructive vs the old BBs, BCs, etc RN ships.

If you start the construction of your BBs in 1938 (because of techs), you will probably have them rdy in 1940, so yes, you will have to wait :D. And even i would wait until you have the West coast of france under your control for better air support.
 
You probably wont even get in range of a CV. Maybe if you have luck. If you make BBs/DDs fleets, the best you can do vs CV fleets is to send the INTs into the fight, try to retire from combat and go for repairs.

Hmm, Secret Master seemed to imply that you can defeat a CV with sufficiently fast surface ships (and presumably air cover). Is that accurate?
 
Hmm, Secret Master seemed to imply that you can defeat a CV with sufficiently fast surface ships (and presumably air cover). Is that accurate?

Depends on luck, CV fleets are real fast as well, it would take hours to close in due to speed differential. So you need get lucky and jump CTF and start shooting immediately - that's your only chance. I'd say that it is more likely that CAGs will get surprise bonus and tear your ships to pieces than you will get that lucky battle :)
 
How interesting. A BB plus DD fleet can take out a CV with 1938 techs unlocked? Do you find that BC's are not worth building versus the all powerful BB? Since you are talking about unlocking 1938 techs, I assume this means waiting on a decisive naval engagement until around late 1940?

I've tried using them before. Their speed bonus is small potatoes compared to the firepower and armor of BBs. You should be able to use them and CAs to hunt down CVs, but their speed bonus does not overcome the fact that CAGs can hurt them badly before they get in firing range.

Hmm, Secret Master seemed to imply that you can defeat a CV with sufficiently fast surface ships (and presumably air cover). Is that accurate?

Depends on luck, CV fleets are real fast as well, it would take hours to close in due to speed differential. So you need get lucky and jump CTF and start shooting immediately - that's your only chance. I'd say that it is more likely that CAGs will get surprise bonus and tear your ships to pieces than you will get that lucky battle :)

If you have air cover, those CAGs may hurt your ships BUT if you send in your NAVs, the CVs can be in real trouble (land based air cover). It's even better if you are in range of INTs and CAS; CAS can be a very cheap way to get in some damage on ships (check out their sea attack rating). This is especially the case if the CAGs are taking losses from your AA while the NAVs bomb the CVs. You can also use INTs to shoot down CAGs (FtM 3.05)

Engaging CVs with BB groups looks like this (assuming you have some speed advantage):

1) CAGs bomb BBs.
2) BBs and DDs sail into range
3) BBs trash some screens
4) If the AA is sufficiently advanced, both CAGs and BBs take serious damage
5) CTF is now short screens and has shredded CAGs, while the BBs/DDs need to go to port.

Air cover changes that equation in favor of the BBs because NAVs and CAS will inflict real damage on the CVs whether or not the BBs ever get in range. But without being able to pin them in a pitched sea battle, the NAVs and CAS won't be able to get more one or two missions against the CVs. Pinning them down means you can give them love from your NAVs over and over again. :)

If the BBs have enough of a speed advantage over the CTF, it can also kill screens. That isn't too exciting, but if the CVs have no screens, then putting them out at sea can be dangerous if they run into the SAG again.

EDIT: Like subs, NAVs have a chance at getting a special "surprise bonus" that increases their combat efficiency for a few hours by a substantial percentage. Those CVs are toast if you can get lucky, and using SAGs to pin them down near your own airfields is a part of making sure you get the chance to get lucky.
 
Hmm, Secret Master seemed to imply that you can defeat a CV with sufficiently fast surface ships (and presumably air cover). Is that accurate?


I can confirm that German battlecruisers in game can defeat carrier based fleet in waters where air cover of ground base fighter is available.
But,and this is really only my estimation, battlecruiser fleet of tech/model IV can defeat carrier fleet of tech model II.,for III its uncertainty.

Its ,I repeat my assumption from my experience, German battlecruiser fleet of sharnhorst class(tech IV) can sunk british early carriers of class II.

When carrier hull/engine is same level of class of battlecruiser,or one below, this carrier fleet is to fast for BC to have chance in normal combat environment to close fast enough.however,if fighter cover is strong enough to deny CAG operation,everything can happen.

from that reason, battleship ,which is significantly slower than BC,is helplessly slow,from my opinion, against CV.

But Germany has supreme BC technology and experience in game,very advanced BC-s(class V even VI)escorted by equaly advanced CL-s can be developed and deployed in game,resulting in powerful battle-fleets faster than anything, and clever tactics can result in surprising achievements.

Battlecruiser is one very very interesting ship in HOI III guys.Compared to HOI II its Renaissance of BC,(unfortunately quite opposite happen to CA).
The key is of course to give at least some protection of relatively soft BC bellies against CAG,and that means at least some fighter cover to distract CAG.s enough to BC break trough CV fleet outer perimeter.
 
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I have been experimenting with these BC CV killer fleets and so far I have not managed to sink a single carrier. Granted I shoot their escorts down like flies and anything that is not a carrier is fast on the ocean floor. I think my mistake was that I did put armor on them so I guess they are too slow to catch up.

Now I am going to try the same tactic with Pocket Battleships, surely they will be fast enough
 
I have been experimenting with these BC CV killer fleets and so far I have not managed to sink a single carrier. Granted I shoot their escorts down like flies and anything that is not a carrier is fast on the ocean floor. I think my mistake was that I did put armor on them so I guess they are too slow to catch up.

Now I am going to try the same tactic with Pocket Battleships, surely they will be fast enough

Don't bother testing that - i already did it with CA/CL and you still don't catch carriers unless you get lucky - the way to test this is to have pause on battle start and check distances of ships, if carriers start 55km away it doesn't take rocket scientist to realize that you need ~30km/h speed to catch up with 24km/h+ carrier fleet and still arrive above surface. Now when you "surprise" carriers once in a while - you are shooting at start already.



Air cover changes that equation in favor of the BBs because NAVs and CAS will inflict real damage on the CVs whether or not the BBs ever get in range. But without being able to pin them in a pitched sea battle, the NAVs and CAS won't be able to get more one or two missions against the CVs. Pinning them down means you can give them love from your NAVs over and over again.

I am aware of this bait tactic, actually i was always big proponent of using BBs + CLs in this role ( instead of BCs/CAs or DD screens ), as they can take punishment without loosing zounds of IC days in unlucky battle, speed doesn't matter when NAVs do damage and all you need to pin enemy fleets and survive long enough.
Actually in some other thread Alex proposed (or rather shared) tactic of using massive CA+CL to shred CAGs with massed AA - but again, that didn't work for me either, increase in AA attack is not that huge and CAs tend to sink too much for my taste.

With INT supressing RAF bases and helping in seas and with NAVs attacking pinned ships - you can damage RN with NAVs quite a bit, sinking old ships and stuff - results are worse if RN packs ships into larger fleet (due to AA and more targets). Quite a few kills will be probably in ports on damaged ships and the rest in lucky raids with that 75% surprise mod.

But if you don't execute Sea Lion, ~1941-42 time frame, modern RN and USN fleets make NAV tactic useless ( think about it as the end of SS domination once modern ASW and CTF fleets come online).
1) Size - they tend to be larger
2) Modern ships have AA that tears NAVs apart fast and (wild speculation) ship/land radar prevents surprise bonuses.
3) NAVs simply don't scale well due to stacking limits.



If the BBs have enough of a speed advantage over the CTF, it can also kill screens. That isn't too exciting, but if the CVs have no screens, then putting them out at sea can be dangerous if they run into the SAG again.

My findings in this department are a bit anecdotical, but consider the following, in my GER games i run the following ships for 1939 summer crusade against RN:

1) Main CTF of 6xTech V(m1938) carriers + 6 initial starting CLs as screens with small ship radar and AA upgraded. Speed is 24kph
2) Auxiliary CTF of 4x escort carriers of tech V without any escorts, tho I sometimes attach starting CAs for shore bomb values. Speed is 20kph
3) Writeoff CTF of 6x escort carriers of tech I without any escorts. Speed is 18kph.

With (3) in combat funny things happen:
1) If engaged by small SAG - ships start @ 50km distance, my fleet has 95% positioning with skill 4 commander and when i get pause screen, some of enemy ships are already deorged, 6 CAGs are no joke. Still enemy will close in but most of the time will simply have to retreat due to damage - I will pursue them into next sea zone (ofc avoiding nasty sea zones)
2) If engaged by large SAG - ships start @ 50km distance, but i have to retreat immediately and my ships run to port with minor damage.
3) If engaged by CTF - my ships take damage and when battle starts both sides are "damaged", but i can't force a retreat on enemy unless it is a small CTF and will need repairs in ports. ( i guess it has to do with funny sea attack/def values :) )

With (2) fleet it is the same, with a twist that large SAGs are less dangerous as they don't close in so fast.

So as you can see, technically screens don't do anything to CTF performance as long as you have good positioning and play cards right, their role lies solely in AA damage, AA defence values and presenting more targets to opponent air power.

P.S. And don't panic if you see a big nasty BB in "shooting" mode against your CTF once game is paused - check it's target and most of the time you will see that it is shooting own ships :) Real suprise battles start with your carriers close and getting torn.
 
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I have been experimenting with these BC CV killer fleets and so far I have not managed to sink a single carrier. Granted I shoot their escorts down like flies and anything that is not a carrier is fast on the ocean floor. I think my mistake was that I did put armor on them so I guess they are too slow to catch up.

Now I am going to try the same tactic with Pocket Battleships, surely they will be fast enough


In my GER games I make "traps" zones, usually its near French coastline south of England(projection of Brest port).

here I compose 2 fleets of composition 2-3 x BC + CL escort.


The game with the Royal navy usually starts after I defeat France.
I send my 2 fleets in one same naval area,and also give fighter cover and NAV atack there,plus subs.

usual "combat group" in trap is:

two 2 -3 x BC + 4x CL fleets
One 3x sub pack
One 2x NAV bomber formation.
1 x 3 Interceptor formation,better if 2x 3 The key is fighter cover.

Combat missions acts one-two weeks, or whenever any of the elements of trap(fleet, planes) get damage that requires retreat to recover----,than all formations are retreated to harbors/airfields.

So they act together.

Usually at first RN is "strip off" just of light ships sunk(DD, CL,,but than came CA sinking,and BB-s. At the end RN sends carriers and they are sunk too.(usually their 2 CV II).
Sometimes I send one BC fleet to convoy ride in area(as a bate),and another BC fleet on intercept.

Its not possible to destroy RN that way entirely, "Trap" can Worn off Royal Navy to the extent of incapability of ASW ,and when my first carriers of Graff Zepellin class(IV) are sea-born in late 1941/early 1942, they just destroy RN remnants.
 
Has anyone tried using Land-based CAGs to attack ships near the coast? While operating from land bases, would they still get their stacking discount?... or would they stack like NAVs?

EDIT: Just now took a look at the data files for CAGs...

cag = {
type = air
active = no
sprite = Fighter
is_cag = yes

#Size Definitions
max_strength = 100
default_organisation = 30
default_morale = 0.30
officers = 0

#Building Costs
build_cost_ic = 3.50
build_cost_manpower = 1.10
build_time = 500

#Misc Abilities
maximum_speed = 300.00
transport_capability = 0.00
supply_consumption = 1.10
fuel_consumption = 1.70
range = 450.00
radio_strength = 1

#Detection Abilities
surface_detection = 2.00
air_detection = 2.00

#Defensive Abilities
surface_defence = 3.00
air_defence = 6.00

#Offensive Abilities
soft_attack = 2.00
hard_attack = 2.00
sea_attack = 4.00
air_attack = 3.00
strategic_attack = 0.00
sub_attack = 4.00

completion_size = 1.8
on_completion = single_engine_aircraft_practical

priority = 5
}

Holy CRAP these puppies look good... I think in my next Germany game, I'll just build an airforce made up of Interceptors and CAGs!
 
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Has anyone tried using Land-based CAGs to attack ships near the coast? While operating from land bases, would they still get their stacking discount?... or would they stack like NAVs?

EDIT: Just now took a look at the data files for CAGs...



Holy CRAP these puppies look good... I think in my next Germany game, I'll just build an airforce made up of Interceptors and CAGs!

They get reduced stacking for those missions and have godly stats as well. And with solid land "carrier" there are no problems with ORG/STR either. Too bad most of MP games have a house rule against using them in this capacity :) And their non naval stats are great too...


EDIT: This post kinda redefined getting emu'ed - i pressed "reply with quote" when there was just a line of "Has anyone tried..." - got an edit window where there was already "Holy CRAP..." line added, and now there are CAG stats pasted, making my post completely irrelevant within seconds :)
 
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Holy CRAP these puppies look good... I think in my next Germany game, I'll just build an airforce made up of Interceptors and CAGs!

It is interesting truly.
Basically, I don't see what is the difference of acting CAGs from airfield and from carriers, except in mobility of their platform.
You just made me wondering what if I equip my ambush for RN by 4x CAG formation in Brest Airfield.
 
You just made me wondering what if I equip my ambush for RN by 4x CAG formation in Brest Airfield.

You need ~12-16 to make them work properly, 4xCAG simply don't have enough naval punch, 12x DO. If you add radar into Brest, due to game bug you can get extra 50+% of performance out of first wing of CAGs in play, making that wing nearly 300% combat efficiency if you also got 75% surprise mod...
 
Yeah, I've used CAGs that way before. And I can understand why that house rule is employed in MP.

The trick with CAGs versus NAVs is to boil down these advantages and disadvantages and see what fits your current game

CAGs:

More Sea Attack per IC
Better range in some cases
Uses light aircraft practical
Uses slightly less manpower than NAVs (1.1 versus 1.6)

NAVs:
Surprise bonus: 25% chance, +75% combat efficiency for 3 hours
Better defense against AA fire
Better concentration of force (you get more Sea Attack per stacking penalty for NAVs than you do for CAGs)
Require fewer doctrines for same bonuses (CAGs need several extra doctrines from all over the various aviation trees to be fully effective in terms of morale and ORG in addition to naval mission doctrines; NAVs just require naval mission doctrines and Medium Bomber doctrines.)

The thing about NAVs is that they win in terms of concentration of force. That's a big deal when you want to kill the enemy fleet right now. If you have the luxury of running multiple missions and of rotating in multiple wings of CAGs, then CAGs seem to be the winner. Also, CAGs can do other stuff while NAVs suck at everything else. (Actually, NAVs can also convoy raid like a boss, but so can CAGs so it's a wash in that case.)
 
Has anyone tried adding a few submarines to your BB or BC fleet? I wonder if the surprise bonus would be able to instantly bring you into firing range on the CVs?
 
One nice point about a land-based CAG airforce is that you can spend the early wars (Poland, Low Countries, France) running Ground Attack missions within your own Air Superiority shield (ie: Interceptor coverage), in order to build up unit experience rapidly. Then you can take on the Poms with veteran CAG wings. It's not nearly so easy to build up unit experience for aircraft that lack decent ground-attack stats.

Has anyone tried adding a few submarines to your BB or BC fleet?

It sounds like a bit of a one-trick pony, since the Subs would slow your fleet down so much that if you failed to gain surprise, you would never manage to close in. It might be more profitable to use this trick with very slow fleets.
 
One nice point about a land-based CAG airforce is that you can spend the early wars (Poland, Low Countries, France) running Ground Attack missions within your own Air Superiority shield (ie: Interceptor coverage), in order to build up unit experience rapidly.

The same applies to any CAG airforce, for example I get my carriers mid June, and hostilities start in May - so plenty of time. In reality you don't really need additional INT coverage in Poland, so you are free to use them as target practice. It is almost an exploit, as 24 CAGs can get dozens of air combat experience practical and boost your air doctrines research to epic speeds. Sometimes I create a honey trap of those provinces around Konigsberg and allow my CAGs pound poles around the city 24/7...