What are good options for someone wanting to build a Kriegsmarine or Soviet Navy which can fight the opposing navies in the title, and facilitate amphibious invasions? Only condition: no carriers.
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This is what I'd do
That you will need interceptors to eliminate enemy cags and possibly skip armour techs when researching ship designs in order to maximize speed of your ships, this is important because you are going to have trouble closing with the carriers (becasue they will run away like little bitches and pound you from the air).
I'd probably devote 3 battle cruisers as IIRC they are the fastest non-Cv capital ship with 3 battle ships for fire-power against wounded units (but have researched there armour). And 9 light crusiers or destroyers ( no armour techs so they can screen yoour battle crusiers, if you have spare leadership maybe do half DD half CL with one of them having armour tech)
That you will need interceptors to eliminate enemy cags and possibly skip armour techs when researching ship designs in order to maximize speed of your ships, this is important because you are going to have trouble closing with the carriers (becasue they will run away like little bitches and pound you from the air).
I'd probably devote 3 battle cruisers as IIRC they are the fastest non-Cv capital ship with 3 battle ships for fire-power against wounded units (but have researched there armour). And 9 light crusiers or destroyers ( no armour techs so they can screen yoour battle crusiers, if you have spare leadership maybe do half DD half CL with one of them having armour tech)
Or, research BB's/BC's all around so they can survive, screen properly, meet the main fleet head on, win, and through repeated engagements drive them back into port. Once there, park your fleet outside and every time they try to slip by, they will get a little more damaged. Eventually the CV's will go down. Note that I've only used this on the RN, by the time I fight USN I usually have my own CTF's to go toe-to-toe.
EDIT: Also (I presume you're Germany), I research SOME sub tech (try to get to '40/'42 except in AA) so that I can convoy raid and every now and then slip in a few shots. I also use CA's quite a bit too as they can soak up damage when properly researched and can be relatively dirt cheap to make. I realize I'm in the minority when using CA's however.
EDIT: Also (I presume you're Germany), I research SOME sub tech (try to get to '40/'42 except in AA) so that I can convoy raid and every now and then slip in a few shots. I also use CA's quite a bit too as they can soak up damage when properly researched and can be relatively dirt cheap to make. I realize I'm in the minority when using CA's however.
Some Subs would be good for training your Admirals... Convoy Raiding gives lots of experience, so you could bump your favorite Admirals up a couple of skill levels before assigning them to a surface-gunnery task force. Deploy the subs individually, not in groups.
Deploying the subs alone can be risky if they get found. Nothing more annoying than losing a lvl 9 admiral to destroyers
Sure thing. But should I ever let submarines take on actual fleets, mixed in with surface ships? I'm going to play as Germany, and later on, SU(I'll do them just to see can I create a navy after ignoring it for long time because of German threat, and give headaches to capitalists.)- I think on the Wiki of HOI3 someone mentioned spamming CA/CL as the Soviets.
Escort Carriers? Ok, jokes aside, you can't defeat proper USN/RN carrier fleets - you might hurt their cags, drive them into ports, bomb them with NAVs while @ sea and in ports, but the losses in ships and planes will be hard to swallow.
That's why I suggested half BC(with no armour) and half bb (with armour). The BB to take shots and give power to the fleet. The optimal thing to do would be to have two kinds of fleets. One with BC & CL for dealing with CVs and the other kind of BB & DD with armour tech. But its hard to have a fleet where it needs to be.
I am no expert on navel warfare but IIRC BB have less sea defence than BC. This means that the enemy will view the BBs as a bigger threat and will try to sink it first. So in theory the BBs should take the shots from the enemy, but if the BCs are always in range first (due to better speed allowing them to close fastest) logic says they will be targeted first and therefore take the shots and with their crap armour, sunk first.
Perhaps the fast screens will screen your BC though.
Really what you need is someone who really understands navel warfare and uses surface fleets. Because I dont use them I dont really know the techs or how they work. With CVs and CLs I just research it all and hope for the best.
But back on point.
I dont have techs in front of me but in my mind faster ships should be harder to hit than slow ships. Armour should make ships be able to be hit more before sinking. What that would mean in game probably would be ;fast ships higher sea defence and armoured ships higher strength (or something).
I tend to just build CV&CL so I am not an expert on surface fleets.
Edit
By the time I wrote this I was emu'ed about six times.
I am no expert on navel warfare but IIRC BB have less sea defence than BC. This means that the enemy will view the BBs as a bigger threat and will try to sink it first. So in theory the BBs should take the shots from the enemy, but if the BCs are always in range first (due to better speed allowing them to close fastest) logic says they will be targeted first and therefore take the shots and with their crap armour, sunk first.
Perhaps the fast screens will screen your BC though.
Really what you need is someone who really understands navel warfare and uses surface fleets. Because I dont use them I dont really know the techs or how they work. With CVs and CLs I just research it all and hope for the best.
But back on point.
I dont have techs in front of me but in my mind faster ships should be harder to hit than slow ships. Armour should make ships be able to be hit more before sinking. What that would mean in game probably would be ;fast ships higher sea defence and armoured ships higher strength (or something).
I tend to just build CV&CL so I am not an expert on surface fleets.
Edit
By the time I wrote this I was emu'ed about six times.
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IN RPM Ive had success with a fleet consisting of 2 Scharnhorst class BC's and the starting kreigsmarine while i use my bb's as decoys. I just dont use them when i fight large ground campaigns as it does take a lot of micro to do it right. I also dont leave range of friendly interceptor and naval bomber cover so this limits me to the north see. Even still i still sank the HMS Hood and a large number of other bb's bc's and even some cvl's. Losses were acceptable on my side but did mount to the point that i had to set up light cruiser production run. I honestly nevet fought the US so I cannot help you there as by than i would fight fire with fire ie use carriers myself in a third fleet.
Transports work even better as bait but be careful with them and never use them for bait when they are loaded.
The bb as bait plan is simple in the 1936 Germany start build immediately 2bc's and 2 bb's. Due to the ways practicals work they will comlete within days of each other due to the increase in practicals by the completion. Then create 2 fleets with them. I the BC fleet with Scharnhorst and Gneisenau and the starting KM. The Bismarck and Tirpitz will be part of the Hochseeflotte which will be our bait fleet and will consist of any more naval construction we can afford after these ships are completed, for me its usually some destroyers or light cruisers. When war breaks out conquer poland as managing the fleet is a full time operation until you can break out into the atlantic and you can hit britian where they really hurt their convoys. IN rpm the france campaign is scripted to start on its historical timetable so i use this time so whittle down the royal and french navies. I first set up patrols right off off of the coast of Germany on the north see and the area to the west of denmark on the map. I ue both fleets and since RPM gives me a Naval bomber wing at the start, I use that as a scout to find enemy fleets. When a battle does break out i bring BOTH fleets to the battle and bomb it with my naval bombers while my land based fighters provide air cover. RPM's Twin engined fighters work great for this but multi role in vanilla could worl as well. Eventually though one must keep an eye on your ships health, if your fleet is getting beat up retreat asap especially if outnumbered but even if you arew winning the loss of a modern BB is not worth most of the crap the british of french call ships in their navy. When your ships start to look ragged especially the screens say they fall below 20% strength pull back to port for repairs and repeat the process. The BB's as bait comes in if you designate one of them as pride as I always designate the mighty Bismarck the AI seems to attack it, at which point my 28 knot BC fleet (yes RPM increased the speed of the BC's and the BB's) comes in to give them hell.
The bb as bait plan is simple in the 1936 Germany start build immediately 2bc's and 2 bb's. Due to the ways practicals work they will comlete within days of each other due to the increase in practicals by the completion. Then create 2 fleets with them. I the BC fleet with Scharnhorst and Gneisenau and the starting KM. The Bismarck and Tirpitz will be part of the Hochseeflotte which will be our bait fleet and will consist of any more naval construction we can afford after these ships are completed, for me its usually some destroyers or light cruisers. When war breaks out conquer poland as managing the fleet is a full time operation until you can break out into the atlantic and you can hit britian where they really hurt their convoys. IN rpm the france campaign is scripted to start on its historical timetable so i use this time so whittle down the royal and french navies. I first set up patrols right off off of the coast of Germany on the north see and the area to the west of denmark on the map. I ue both fleets and since RPM gives me a Naval bomber wing at the start, I use that as a scout to find enemy fleets. When a battle does break out i bring BOTH fleets to the battle and bomb it with my naval bombers while my land based fighters provide air cover. RPM's Twin engined fighters work great for this but multi role in vanilla could worl as well. Eventually though one must keep an eye on your ships health, if your fleet is getting beat up retreat asap especially if outnumbered but even if you arew winning the loss of a modern BB is not worth most of the crap the british of french call ships in their navy. When your ships start to look ragged especially the screens say they fall below 20% strength pull back to port for repairs and repeat the process. The BB's as bait comes in if you designate one of them as pride as I always designate the mighty Bismarck the AI seems to attack it, at which point my 28 knot BC fleet (yes RPM increased the speed of the BC's and the BB's) comes in to give them hell.
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I don't think it's possible for the USSR to build a strong enough navy to be able to challenge the USN. You don't really have enough leadership.
As Germany, playing against the AI, I never had issues to defeat the RN and invade the UK before the sovierts can break MR. If you don't want to build CV, just build a BB/DD fleet. I don't think it's a good idea to add BCs since they use different techs and doctrines.
The UK only has old ships and the AI doesn't focus on the naval stuff. However, the USN is an other story.
As Germany, playing against the AI, I never had issues to defeat the RN and invade the UK before the sovierts can break MR. If you don't want to build CV, just build a BB/DD fleet. I don't think it's a good idea to add BCs since they use different techs and doctrines.
The UK only has old ships and the AI doesn't focus on the naval stuff. However, the USN is an other story.
um, yeah...with no carriers to back you up you world have major losses no matter how you look at it. My strategy would be to spam BBs late in the Russo-German War (it works both ways) and then DDs for screens. If you want you can build and research subs, but to me they're a pain in the neck.
Wrong. Dead wrong.
Not only can you build a navy, but it can be a world class navy. Check it out.
As for killing the RN, their ships are old and crappy. Their BBs are from the 1920s. Their CVs are a bit of a pain, but they aren't invincible. 3xBB,5xDD fleets with 1938-1940 techs aught to kill 75% of the RN without too much trouble. The CVs will be harder to pin down, and some folks here have some good suggestions. My only addition would be that maybe NAVs combined with suckering the CVs near your airfields would be the best option.
Killing an AI UK fleet is always easy. Fighting a human controled UK fleet is something
else entirely. Same gamewise US fighting Japan. One clash between superfleets and
its pretty much over. This is why there needs to be a rework by PI of the AI of fleets.
If Germany starts building BBs and CVs then just like prior to WWI Britain will. The 4 KGs
are a match for the 2 Bismarcks. Any US Mississippi or Colorados are too except speed
wise and the N. Carolinas are easily more powerful than the Bismarcks (june 41 to Dec 41
is not that far. The USN would be involved then). Prior to then expect a real UK to build
to match any German builds and a rebuilt Hood once Germany would decide on major naval
builds. The AI will not respond to that tho till they take losses in combat.
The opposite is also true. Playing as the UK you can destroy the AI German fleet in about
2 months as they try to keep the Engish Channel free of UK ships. Just rotate 6 old BBs with
some CLs and DDs and you will kill all the German caps and cls...
You can do the above playing either one over and over in numerous games
else entirely. Same gamewise US fighting Japan. One clash between superfleets and
its pretty much over. This is why there needs to be a rework by PI of the AI of fleets.
If Germany starts building BBs and CVs then just like prior to WWI Britain will. The 4 KGs
are a match for the 2 Bismarcks. Any US Mississippi or Colorados are too except speed
wise and the N. Carolinas are easily more powerful than the Bismarcks (june 41 to Dec 41
is not that far. The USN would be involved then). Prior to then expect a real UK to build
to match any German builds and a rebuilt Hood once Germany would decide on major naval
builds. The AI will not respond to that tho till they take losses in combat.
The opposite is also true. Playing as the UK you can destroy the AI German fleet in about
2 months as they try to keep the Engish Channel free of UK ships. Just rotate 6 old BBs with
some CLs and DDs and you will kill all the German caps and cls...
You can do the above playing either one over and over in numerous games
Wow. That were massive plans. Thanks, I now have hope. I'm thinking also of making most of my ships have very strong AA, so that the enemy CAG-s get caught in a hailstorm of bullets.
Secret Master said:
I wasn't accurate in my post. I tried to say that the Sovs can't build a powerfull navy to fight the USN in 1941. I agree that in the long run and with victory over Euro-Axis, the USSR has more potential than Germany.