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Thread: What's the point of the "Return unlawful territory" decision (HRE)?

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    What's the point of the "Return unlawful territory" decision (HRE)?

    I inherited Flanders (which I'd made Burgundy release as a sovereign nation ages ago) and I now have three provinces in what was once Flanders that have this decision available. I took the decision in Nassau to see what happens - Flanders is reborn as a OPM in the form of Nassau.

    What gives? What's the benefit of doing this? I saved before taking the decision and have since reloaded, but would like to know whether there's anything useful to this decision on my end. It has something to do with the HRE, but what exactly? The mouse over tip is spectacularly unhelpful ("(Austria): Event 'The release of Nassau happens'.")

    In a similar vein, is it worth getting the province to leave the HRE? I'm England btw, so not a member of the HRE. From reading the wiki I gather that Austria (or whoever is Emperor - but right now it's Austria) has a CB to take imperial provinces from non-members.

  2. #2
    You get infamy for having non-core provinces in the HRE and if you refuse the decision you lost stability. Having too much infamy is a very bad thing and it will cause problems if you go over the limit.
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    The decision is there for a way to release unlawful provinces back to their owner.

    But IMO, that modifier should had gone away after you inherited, since Flanders was the original owner (prior to you) and had refused.

    Are you sure you are also getting no +infamy from holding the three provinces? If you are not in HRE, I would expect that you are not ... which if verified, points to a minor design flaw in that the modifier should had gone away when Flanders was 'removed' via the inheritance.

  4. #4
    If you are holding a HRE province for which you have no rights (core) - Emperor may ask you to return the province, even if you are not HRE member.
    If you refuse - province gets a nasty effect reducing income and increasing revolt risk. You also lose prestige if you refuse the Emperor (he is chosen by God, you know).

    The effect will not be removed until you get core or lose the province. Once the effect is there - it does not matter any more if province is still in HRE.

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    There's no +infamy modifier listed when I mouse over my infamy, no.

    I've not "refused" the decision btw, it's simply available in the province. Does that mean there's another mechanism by which I get prompted to make a choice of whether to release the province?

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    Quote Originally Posted by steevm View Post
    There's no +infamy modifier listed when I mouse over my infamy, no.

    I've not "refused" the decision btw, it's simply available in the province. Does that mean there's another mechanism by which I get prompted to make a choice of whether to release the province?
    I think you are stuck with the modifier until you core the province and then it will (automatically) go away within a few months.

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    If you own uncored HRE territory, the Emperor can demand that you return it to the rightful owner. This event fires during peacetime fairly quickly after you acquire the territory. If you refuse, then you acquire an "Unlawful territory" modifier, which is quite nasty. You lose 1% prestige and gain 0.25 infamy per year, per territory. Thus your three Flanders province will quickly result in you gaining 0.75 infamy per year. You also recieve an immediate -1 stability hit, a loss of 10 prestige, and the emperor has a casus belli on you for the next 12 months.

    The best option is to take the province out of the empire. To do this, you need to have less than 0 relations with the Emperor. And it'll cause you to lose an additional 100 relations when you enact it, as well as give the Emperor a casus belli.
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    Quote Originally Posted by steevm View Post
    There's no +infamy modifier listed when I mouse over my infamy, no.

    I've not "refused" the decision btw, it's simply available in the province. Does that mean there's another mechanism by which I get prompted to make a choice of whether to release the province?
    I presume you haven't gotten the "formal request" event from the Emperor yet. Yes, it'll prompt you to release the province to the Emperor, who will decide what to do with it. Usually it will return to whoever got a core on it. If it doesn't have a core, the Emperor may keep it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurblius View Post
    If you own uncored HRE territory, the Emperor can demand that you return it to the rightful owner. This event fires during peacetime fairly quickly after you acquire the territory. If you refuse, then you acquire an "Unlawful territory" modifier, which is quite nasty. You lose 1% prestige and gain 0.25 infamy per year, per territory. Thus your three Flanders province will quickly result in you gaining 0.75 infamy per year. You also recieve an immediate -1 stability hit, a loss of 10 prestige, and the emperor has a casus belli on you for the next 12 months.

    The best option is to take the province out of the empire. To do this, you need to have less than 0 relations with the Emperor. And it'll cause you to lose an additional 100 relations when you enact it, as well as give the Emperor a casus belli.
    If I refuse the request (I don't have 3 magistrates at hand) - and subsequently remove the province from the HRE, are the modifiers permanent or do I then lose them upon removing the province from the empire?

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    I'm not sure on that one and I'd be curious to know myself.

    Oh, and the event is more likely to fire if you have high infamy and decentralization. It appears to take MUCH longer to occur if you're a lucky nation, (which England usually is).

    http://www.paradoxian.org/eu3wiki/A_Formal_Request
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    Y'see, if the modifier can't be lost, I might just declare war on the Mayans or an equally non-threatening backwards nation so as to forestall the emperor while I collect a couple of magistrates...

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    Yeah that would do it for sure. Request only fires during peace.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurblius View Post
    I'm not sure on that one and I'd be curious to know myself.

    Oh, and the event is more likely to fire if you have high infamy and decentralization. It appears to take MUCH longer to occur if you're a lucky nation, (which England usually is).

    http://www.paradoxian.org/eu3wiki/A_Formal_Request
    But the human player is never lucky.

  14. #14
    I found the unlawful territory penalty and the effects of the request to return unlawful territory to be shockingly severe, so next time I take a HRE province I'll be sure to have a few magistrates laying around to immediately leave the HRE... you can always rejoin afterwards it seems pretty easy (100 relations with the HRemperor or somesuch)
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  15. #15
    Once the "Formal Request" event fires and you refuse, you're stuck with the death modifier on that province until it cores, whether or not you remove that province from the Empire. I learned that one the hard way.

    As gamey as the Maya war sounds, it would save you the hassle of holding territories that would be a huge liability until they core.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Arthien View Post
    As gamey as the Maya war sounds, it would save you the hassle of holding territories that would be a huge liability until they core.
    Quite a lot of Imperial territory is worth holding uncored, wrong-culture, wrong-religion, and subject to the unlawful territory penalty, if you ask me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Arthien View Post
    As gamey as the Maya war sounds, it would save you the hassle of holding territories that would be a huge liability until they core.
    I have no qualms - if I'd have known earlier, I wouldn't have spent 4 magistrates on buildings in newly acquired Flanders until after removing the provinces.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Kurblius View Post
    You lose 1% prestige and gain 0.25 infamy per year, per territory. Thus your three Flanders province will quickly result in you gaining 0.75 infamy per year. You also recieve an immediate -1 stability hit, a loss of 10 prestige, and the emperor has a casus belli on you for the next 12 months.
    You are mixing up the formal request and the modifier for HRR members. The former is an event with an ugly downside for refusing, but the latter, the thing with the Infamy gain is for members of the Empire only. Of course, they get a 0.25 Infamy REDUCTION in the first place, so they can get away with Unlawful Territor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CyberEagle View Post
    You are mixing up the formal request and the modifier for HRR members. The former is an event with an ugly downside for refusing, but the latter, the thing with the Infamy gain is for members of the Empire only. Of course, they get a 0.25 Infamy REDUCTION in the first place, so they can get away with Unlawful Territor.
    Aaah ok... Wait, come again? Where does HRE members get an infamy reduction?

    Edit: Just did a forum search. Seems as though they get infamy reduction for 1 unlawful province. So as a HRE member you can get 1 unlawful province every 50 years without penalty, right? And if you're not HRE member you don't get the 50 year infamy/prestige hit, but you still get the stability hit. Right?
    Last edited by Kurblius; 21-04-2012 at 05:28.
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    Quote Originally Posted by grommile View Post
    Quite a lot of Imperial territory is worth holding uncored, wrong-culture, wrong-religion, and subject to the unlawful territory penalty, if you ask me.
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