holy war CB as ethiopia

[gigau]

Moscowy--Russia

I thought that the conquest of the Steppes was rather conquest, spiced with a little revenge for the Mongol domination ?

[Nightstar76]

Novgorod's wars against the Teutonic Order were given the panoply of defensive holy wars. The Orthodox were also far more inclined to use religion for the purposes of the state. The Oriental Orthodox... I don't know. Ethiopia probably framed a lot of its aggressive wars as wars of religion, but then didn't bother to follow up with conversion that I can think of.

[mudcrabmerchant]

Perhaps something could be done to deactivate the Holy War CB against Ethiopia? It's hard to simulate in game just how difficult the geography of the region made conquest, so this could serve as a replacement method for keeping Ethiopia alive.

As for Orthodox Holy War, they experienced long enmity with Muslims, and although due to geography or power balance most of them were unable to declare proper Holy Wars, is it really hard to imagine an Orthodox Balkan power or Georgia declaring war on the Ottomans in a moment of weakness? I think the example of the Byzzies shows that the near-lack of Orthodox Holy Wars was due to practicality, not intent.

[Emperor Marcus]

I think given traditional thought that God worked through the Emperor (which conform to the notion the office was holy in nature and goes back to Constantine the Great) the Byzantine Emperor at the very least had solid grounds to justify or constitute a holy war of their own. If only through propagating the belief that the Emperor was doing god's will by waging war.

I think this can be simulated by enabling the Orthodox Defender of the Faith to wage holy wars against Infidels but not the individual nations themselves kinda like how the Defender of the Faith can declare war on heretics now.. Which i think is a nice compromise to the Orthodox holy war situation given traditionally and ingame the most powerful orthodoxy nations typically became the Defender of the Faith. Which the Byzantines would likely take up if they got out of their near annihilation by the ottomans and typically goes untaken as a title until they do so, or a powerful Russian nation is built up.

I think i have to agree with mudcrabmerchant that the Byzantines never established a solid case for an holy war since it wasn't practical. besides the fact that they never needed to a great degree justify the wars due to the various muslim nations aggression against the Roman Empire.

[mudcrabmerchant]

My point about the Byzantines was that their waging holy wars against the Turks when they had the chance proved that Orthodox countries should be given the option.

[Emperor Marcus]

My point about the Byzantines was that their waging holy wars against the Turks when they had the chance proved that Orthodox countries should be given the option.

Were they really holy wars or just wars to reconquer territory they viewed as their own?

I mean most of the Turkish territory were claimed out of Anatolia that was apart of the Eastern Roman Empire the longest prior to them losing it to the Seljuk Turks.

[gigau]

I have a thought, and would like your comments... just remember it's merely a thought, not yet a plan... so don't yell, and don't hit me

Given the problem we have of too many Europeans going for the Muslim lands and all... what about restricting the Holy War CB, as early as 1356, to the Defender of the Faith ?

[mudcrabmerchant]

I'm all for restricting it, but that seems to be a bit much. DotF should probably go entirely, as it just leads to ahistoric wars where Castile intervenes with every minor squabble between a Catholic and a heretic/heathen. And Castile is the most common DotF early game, so your proposed change won't stop the worst grievances that the CB causes.

I think it should have different limitations depending on religion. Muslims should be able to get it far more easily, perhaps with no further restrictions than they have now. Christians, however, should have it greatly reduced. What if it was restricted to countries with DotF (if it's kept) or certain national ideas/flags, and even then, it was only valid against Muslims who hold the Holy Land or Constantinople, and/or Muslims who are at war with Christians? That would let the Habsburgs and Russians declare war freely on the Ottomans, but Gotland won't be able to take part in the 20th Crusade against Fez.

[gigau]

Seems like a fair assessement.

Anybody else care to give their opinion ?

[Brazen]

I wonder whether Muslim Holy War should be limited also, since it was only in a few geographical areas that it produces historical outcomes. The Ottomans obviously expanded aggressively against Christian nations, as could another Turkish successor state, but this could perhaps be better represented by some imperialistic CB for the new Rum, especially since the Ottomans achieved overall more territorial expansion against the Mamluks, Arabian and Mesopotamian Muslims than they did against the Christians. Across central Asia it's mainly hordes fighting everyone, in which case the religion is largely irrelevant, and Hindu and Muslim states are constantly vying for control over the Indian subcontinent, but all these conflicts were almost exclusively focused on Indian territory so perhaps a regionally limited CB for both sides would be better here? Then there are cases like Georgia and Ethiopia, that actually survived although surrounded by large numbers of Muslim states, and could be helped by limiting the Holy War CB against them (especially since the Mamluks weren't frequently aggressive towards Ethiopia, not as much as a constant, cheap CB would allow). Just my two cents, my historical knowledge of the areas is all a little sketchy so I welcome any constructive criticism.

[mudcrabmerchant]

Ethiopia and (I'm pretty sure) Georgia survived mostly due to their mountains. However, for restricting Holy War for Muslims, perhaps it can be restricted for most Muslims against idol-worshipers and atheists (i.e. Hindus and Buddhists), and be granted unconditionally to states that fulfill certain requirements. As for these requirements, I was going to think the Caliphate would be one, but then that would grant the Mamluks the CB, which is one of the states we're trying to preclude to ensure the survival of Ethiopia.

Maybe there can be a decision to claim the title of Ghazi (like the Ottomans and Timur did), granting prestige, a morale boost, and the ability to declare jihad unconditionally, but granting penalties such as infamy trickle. It would require a certain size and prestige before declaring, and if your prestige drops too far you could lose the modifier.

On the subject of the Ottos and Timmies, are there any generic tribe vs. settled peoples CBs? If so, if they were made available to all states of Turkish culture or in the Tartar group, it could help both of them expand historically. In a recent Timmy game I stopped getting Mongols Advance as soon as I reached Iraq, and I had to mod the Imperialism CB to those parameters to let me continue conquering. And for the Ottos, it could provide them with a much needed CB against the Mamluks and, well, everyone, which would be especially useful if it's decided that Holy War isn't the best CB to model their advances into Europe.

Finally, it may be cool to give the Timurids and other Tartar-group countries the ability to sack major cities like Baghdad, giving a major one-time gold bonus, but drastically reducing base tax and manpower of the city and destroying most of its buildings.

[Ericus1]

Are you TRYING to make it undesirable to play as any christian religion but Catholicism? Seriously? More missionaries, easily at least .5/yr bb reduction, more prestige, better decisions, and generally all around better and more useful effects, especially early game, the vast majority of provinces and countries are catholic, and the reformation is pretty much neutered in this mod so you see very few provinces or nations convert. Easier personal unions and diplomacy with all the nations that matter, easier manipulation of the HRE and HRE bonuses, no need to fight the Catholic DotF in EVERY....god....damn....war, and NOW you want to make ONLY catholics be able to wage holy wars???? Why not just change the names to Catholicism and 'other religions that suck, immediately change to catholic'?

And are you seriously trying to say that the Eastern Roman empire NEVER viewed any of their numerous wars with the muslims as holy wars against the heathens? Really? ONLY catholics ever crusaded? Or the Russians didn't fold their role as the third Rome and the assumption of the patriarchy into their expansion into the steppes and their wars against the Ottomans? There was a lack of strong Orthodox powers in real history during the EUIII time period other than Russia to draw examples from, but to say that had one emerged they wouldn't have used religion as a pretext for expansion is, honestly, ridiculous. But even the minor powers viewed their wars in a religious context: Wallachia, Albania, Serbia, etc. You wouldn't call Vlad the Impaler a crusader?

I normally just go with the flow with the direction mods take and enjoy the new experience, but I just cannot emphasize how stupid this change is, from a historical AND simple, fun gameplay perspectives. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

[JoeSteel]

Correct me if im wrong but im pretty sure that the Tsar of Russia at one time discribed a war against the Ottomans as a holy war. They could have been dragged into it by an alliance however. And the issue with Georgia and Ethiopia surviving is like it was said, because of the terrain. The warfare in the game is far from perfect, and turrain modifiers are still majorly lacking. Perhaps some nations could be given a trait that shows they are better at fighting in a specific turrain? Also the DoTF should only be dragged into a war if the nation is attacked by a heathanistic nation. Nobody fretted over disputes between russia and poland in the religious sense. As far as holy wars go as Ethiopia I have to agree with what is in place at the moment. Our information about Ethiopian and Nubian christians is lacking in general so to say that they never declared a holy war is probably not true, however due to the lack of information giving them a holy war could be innacurate.

[gigau]

Okay, i agree that wanting to restrict holy wars solely to catholics would be unfair. But can we have Prussia, Venice, Genoa, Aragon, Castille and Portugal (with occasional France and Great Britain) taking sizable chunks of North Africa, Levant, Anatolia and Steppes just because they have the holy war cb ?

One restriction could be to have a common border with the religious enemy ?



On a side not, Ericus, i'm working a lot on increasing the spread of protestantism.

[Ikenos]

Ethiopian and Yemen had plenty of holy wars back and forth. They're just out of the time frame (the wars, not the countries)

2 possibilities:
1: Why don't we give the holy war cb to significantly narrowminded countries (as a couple of the ideas expand the options)? or perhaps Theocratic ones. (I have trouble with that slider as the two don't strike me as opposites) Innovative and Secularized countries shouldn't care about crusades. Maybe both at 2 or either at 4?

2: code a new cb with reduced bonuses to give to orthodox and dharmic and pagan religions. maybe akin to the cleansing of heresy cb. This one could also be available to secularized muslim and catholic nations.

[gigau]

Made some corrections to the Holy War cb... to be tested in the upcoming version.

[Evander]

I just checked this thread after trying to start a new Ethiopia game (BTW the v5.3.3 map is neat!) and I checked the Holy War cb prerequisites and I saw :

	prerequisites = {
		OR = {
			AND = {
				religion_group = christian
				NOT = { secularism_theocracy = 0 }
				THIS = { NOT = { religion_group = christian } }
			}

This means that we need to be secularism oriented to be able to wage holy war ? or do I just need some sleep and don't understand the code ?

Also, in the new cb_holy_war, as long as he got the right sliders, the DotF has the cb. IMO the DotF is a Defender not really a warmonger, I understand that he can get involved in every religion war but not that he got automatic cb against heatens.
I remember that there is an event firing when you become the DotF and you can choose your "policy" as DotF, "purify the true faith" or "bringing the light to heatens" or something like that ... wouldn't it be possible to give the cb automatically to the DotF only if he choose the right option (if so the event needs to be reworked to make it an important choice) and if not he only got loosen prerequisites to have the cb ?

[Ikenos]

The idea Deus Vult should give the cb to anyone who has the idea. That's really what we're talking about: a national idea to convert other lands by the sword. Sounds like Deus Vult to me. If I read the code correctly, it's only on its neighbors.

I think in the absence of the holy war cb, we might need some other cbs to encourage warfare.

What about nomad-nomad holy wars? If I read the code correctly, they don't get them.

[gigau]

My bad... must have been quite tired when i coded it. Here's a hotfix :

cb_types.txtMEIOU common folder

[-Hiki-]

I've downloaded the fix but i'm still not getting any holy wars neither as muslim or as chrisitans. I tried Morocco Granada Castille Portugal and Mamluks. Is there still something broken in the decision or does it take very long to become available ?

EDIT: I got pissed on not getting the holy war and just simplified it.