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Thread: Please Devs explain the supply system again for "dummies" like me..

  1. #41
    Field Marshal Cybvep's Avatar

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    80-days supply pool is a bad idea. No additional cost for SR is also a bad idea. Unless other changes are made to balance this properly, I cannot see how the new values would help us to improve the game.

    80-days pool means that amphibious invasions become extremely easy for the player. In fact, with a big offensive, one could liberate France, Netherlands and Belgium without capturing a single port! Just think about it - 30-days pool is already too high for the purposes of amphibious invasions, that's why some mods reduce the pool to a 15-days one. 80-days pool would make the situation much, much worse and a potential slight boost in AI efficiency would not be enough to counter that.

    Also, this change means that encircled units would run out of supplies at a far lower pace, which is not desirable at all. I doubt that we want to see units that can be supplied fully for almost 3 months while being captured in a pocket.

    Moreover, with the new uber-pool units stationed overseas would demand much more supplies than they really need. This would actually create problems for the AI, because it can only check how much supplies is in the capital, not overseas. Therefore, the AI would produce more and more supplies, which it doesn't really need, so it would, in fact, waste more of its IC. Also, while the player would be smart enough to stop sending convoys to places where supply stocks were extremely high (80 days is almost 3 months!), the AI would keep sending them, giving the player's submarines more targets.

    ATM strategic redeployment is only balanced because of the fact that it draws 2x more supplies (and incurs an attack delay), so it is isn't really that beneficial to use it all the time, especially when the distances are short. If we change this so that SR units will draw 0.25x supplies, SR will be far, far superior to standard movement. Remember that SR units require 0 fuel - now they would also require almost no supplies! There are no railways and locomotive in HOI3, so your SR potential is not limited in other ways.

  2. #42
    hmm...supplies going out of Boston is why 1400 US State Militia have starved to death.
    That is kinda wierd reality wise but must make sense gamewise but its beyond me! lol!
    I may have to fly in some home cookin by transports from Pittsburg then....

  3. #43
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    I like to sumarize my post above and some feedback to the other posts since then:
    More info about it in Post 28


    Point 1:
    So, as we see that sometimes single provs have very high supply travel, but next to them not, maybe the supply calculation could be changed a bit, that the supply transport will be spread a bit on more provs before the max infra throughput is reached, putting not that much burden on single provs? (Could be changeable through techs to a logistic modifier?)
    Thinking of the situations where you have enough supply, but all seems to be tranported through a singel 5 infra prov chain and units get out of supply while next to that infra supply chain are more provs that could also be used but are not.
    As low infras took more time and can't deliver as much, that would be no "cheat". Also it would take its supply tax and all..

    Point 2:
    - SUPPLYPOOL_DAYS = 80, -- days of supply. (Std value =30)
    - STRAT_REDEP_SUPPLY_MOD = 0.25, -- how much Suppy is needed after arrival (Std value =2)

    With that values the supply now flow much better even with occupy policy on total exploitation!
    The supply system now tries much more to fulfill the supply need and we get a much better overall supply transportation.

    Having a lower STRAT_REDEP_SUPPLY_MOD will significantly help the other units that are not redeploying to stay in supply..
    As the redeploying units would take their Supply Pool with them. If t was 2, they took the double amount with them and leaving the rest often unsupplied and then generating a high demand on supplies in the prov it left.


    Point 3:
    Mostly high fluctuation with massive supply on/off (only supply production or no supply at all) was only when used the occupation policy "total exploitation".
    While with occupation policy "collaboration" the supply was produced more steadily and in lower rates. Also the delivering of supply does work much better.


    Point 4:
    Also it still would be nice to have an offical answer on the "red hatching and red numbers beahviour" I described above.
    More info that it does not work as intended in Post 27


    Point 5:
    The STRAT_REDEP_ORG_LOSS does still not work..


    Point 6:
    Let the extra supply that is needed for Strat Redeploy taken from the main supply depot and not from the leaving prov would help the overall sypply system maybe a lot.
    Also it would be more right in simulation the needed amount for the tranportation system. (Drawn from the main supply source and not from the fronline provinces..)


    Point 7:
    A new button for diable supply, like disable reinforcement/upgrades would be cool!
    So we could set at HQ-lvl that some fronts won't demand supply while others would be priorized.
    The current priorize button would also priorize the supply then.
    So we would have an some sort of "offensive operations" button.
    Enough space is there if we adjust the buttons to the left a bit.





    @Cybvep
    They are not"bad ideas" just values found out after heavy testing. Not just guessing or feeling.
    I did also test with 0/1/10/15/20.. up to 150 days supply depot and different values for the SR! I did really a lot of testing.. Many hours went into this already.
    And these values do "fix" some odd behaviour with the current system.
    The downside you describe is in reality(ingame) not that big. I feared it to be much worse, but after testing it plays out pretty well.
    There is no big IC wasting. And as a human I don't care if it cost me double amount of supply as I could produce that easily enough, but I do care about having no supply at my other units all the time.. The ai is also buffed, as it could use it better. Human led invasions would not be stopped due to supply in first case. There could be also a feature implemented that you have to get new supply after landings or only the initial landing could be done without supply etc..
    Encircled units have already huge malus and there were encirclements that hold out pretty long. As we have no different supply need for fighting and without, the "realistic" approach on double/tripple amount of supply to hold out is not that big. You would fight with hvy penalties anyway. I usually destroy encirclements way before the supply is out anyway.. So no big change here for me.. A possible change could be in the way the modifier is applied. F.e. no connection to the main supply source gives the out of supply modifier..
    So there are many things/adjustements possible, most with also only little changes.. But that is up to Paradox.. It is not modable..

    This all is mostly to show that there is something "odd" with the current system. As it shows mainly that with such big supply depot we have much less transportation problems.
    Even if it would be logical that we would get a higher stress on the supply system with such higher demand.

    The lesser amount for SR is only to not have a suddenly high demand in that empty provs wich occurs if the leaving unit takes all supply with it.
    As the overall amount of supply is higher, the value doesn't needs to be as high as before. With a supply depot of 80, the amount the transportation cost you is still 20 Supply..



    I polietly ask you and others to try out these values and see it in the context I wrote above before you post.
    And then look out for solutions around it.


    And, I still hope the Devs will comment on those proposals and the question about the red hatchings.

    Cheers,
    Chromos
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  4. #44
    Can some one explain to me why, when all my units in enemy/conquored terrority, it is my atlantic garrison force (3xinf) in Bourdeaux that is out of supply? It is a mystery why it is out of supply and has been for a year+ now. Just been standing there after vichy fell and fending of a couple of invasions, nothing big really. It shows in the upper tooltip as the only division out of supply. Weird.

  5. #45
    Move the division for a while and wait. as long as the divisions on the front get supplis i wouldn't bother much.

  6. #46
    AHOI-Mod Series Developer Demi Moderator Chromos's Avatar
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    Next day, some changes, some additions..
    I like to sumarize my post above and some feedback to the other posts since then:
    More info about it in Post 28


    Point 1:
    So, as we see that sometimes single provs have very high supply travel, but next to them not, maybe the supply calculation could be changed a bit, that the supply transport will be spread a bit on more provs before the max infra throughput is reached, putting not that much burden on single provs? (Could be changeable through techs to a logistic modifier?)
    Thinking of the situations where you have enough supply, but all seems to be tranported through a singel 5 infra prov chain and units get out of supply while next to that infra supply chain are more provs that could also be used but are not.
    As low infras took more time and can't deliver as much, that would be no "cheat". Also it would take its supply tax and all..

    Point 2:
    - SUPPLYPOOL_DAYS = 80, -- days of supply. (Std value =30)
    - STRAT_REDEP_SUPPLY_MOD = 0.25, -- how much Suppy is needed after arrival (Std value =2)

    With that values the supply now flow much better even with occupy policy on total exploitation!
    The supply system now tries much more to fulfill the supply need and we get a much better overall supply transportation.
    Having a lower STRAT_REDEP_SUPPLY_MOD will significantly help the other units that are not redeploying to stay in supply..
    As the redeploying units would take their Supply Pool with them. If t was 2, they took the double amount with them and leaving the rest often unsupplied and then generating a high demand on supplies in the prov it left.
    This all is mostly to show that there is something "odd" with the current system. As it shows mainly that with such big supply depot we have much less transportation problems.
    Even if it would be logical that we would get a higher stress on the supply system with such higher demand.

    The lesser amount for SR is only to not have a suddenly high demand in that empty provs wich occurs if the leaving unit takes all supply with it.
    As the overall amount of supply is higher, the value doesn't needs to be as high as before. With a supply depot of 80, the amount the transportation cost you is still 20 Supply..


    Point 3:
    Mostly high fluctuation with massive supply on/off (only supply production or no supply at all) was only when used the occupation policy "total exploitation".
    While with occupation policy "collaboration" the supply was produced more steadily and in lower rates. Also the delivering of supply does work much better.


    Point 4:
    Also it still would be nice to have an offical answer on the "red hatching and red numbers beahviour" I described above.
    More info that it does not work as intended in Post 27


    Point 5:
    The STRAT_REDEP_ORG_LOSS does still not work..


    Point 6:
    Let the extra supply that is needed for Strat Redeploy taken from the main supply depot and not from the leaving prov would help the overall sypply system maybe a lot.
    Also it would be more right in simulation the needed amount for the tranportation system. (Drawn from the main supply source and not from the fronline provinces..)


    Point 7:
    A new button for disable/lesser supply, like disable reinforcement/upgrades would be cool!
    So we could set at HQ-lvl that some fronts won't demand supply while others would be priorized.
    The current priorize button would also priorize the supply then.
    So we would have an some sort of "offensive operations" button.
    Enough space is there if we adjust the buttons to the left a bit.

    Edit: It could also be just added to the current priorize button, then we wouldn't even need another button. Just priorize in reinforcement/upgrades would now also priorize supply..




    Quote Originally Posted by Skafsgaard View Post
    Can some one explain to me why, when all my units in enemy/conquored terrority, it is my atlantic garrison force (3xinf) in Bourdeaux that is out of supply? It is a mystery why it is out of supply and has been for a year+ now. Just been standing there after vichy fell and fending of a couple of invasions, nothing big really. It shows in the upper tooltip as the only division out of supply. Weird.
    @Skafsgaard
    Please try out the under Point 2 described changes and report if that helped.
    I guess it will. Because what you describe is what can happen very often. The supply is sometimes only one prov away, but has "problems" to get to move on to the unit somehow.
    With the higher demand due to the changes of point 2, the supply then "magically" moves on.
    Maybe also comsubpacs idea helps already too. As then the supply would be very likely recalculated in that area.




    I polietly ask all to try out these values and see it in the context I wrote above before you post.
    And then look out for solutions around it.


    And, I still hope the Devs will comment on those proposals and the question about the red hatchings.

    Cheers,
    Chromos
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  7. #47
    Reichsmarschall Paradox Dev Team Darkrenown's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chromos View Post
    Point 5:
    The STRAT_REDEP_ORG_LOSS does still not work..
    As far as I can see it works fine. Just to check, you are aware this is a reduction of Org gain while moving, not actual org loss, right? Units in SR will have their Org gain reduced/stopped, but they are not meant to actively lose org (The general confused mess that any large scale movement turns into is modeled by the "Attack delay" at the end).
    Relentless madman.

  8. #48
    Field Marshal Cybvep's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkrenown View Post
    As far as I can see it works fine. Just to check, you are aware this is a reduction of Org gain while moving, not actual org loss, right? Units in SR will have their Org gain reduced/stopped, but they are not meant to actively lose org (The general confused mess that any large scale movement turns into is modeled by the "Attack delay" at the end).
    I think that he wants units to lose ORG when SRing.

  9. #49
    AHOI-Mod Series Developer Demi Moderator Chromos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cybvep View Post
    I think that he wants units to lose ORG when SRing.
    That is what I expedted when I read the modifier..
    With the implementation as described form Darkrenown below it makes also sense for me now.


    Quote Originally Posted by Darkrenown View Post
    As far as I can see it works fine. Just to check, you are aware this is a reduction of Org gain while moving, not actual org loss, right? Units in SR will have their Org gain reduced/stopped, but they are not meant to actively lose org (The general confused mess that any large scale movement turns into is modeled by the "Attack delay" at the end).
    Thank you for clarification Darkrenown.
    I wouldn't have thought of such an inplementation at all.
    And it is also hard to check if you don't think about that way.
    Checked it now and can confirm that it is working as you descibed it. Sorry for the confusion on that point.


    Suggestion after knowing more..
    Maybe the implementation would have been more clear and easier to understand, at least for me, if f.e. just an Org drop to zero would have occured.
    So it is more visable and also the environment is taken into account. Harder to reorganize in bad infra etc..

    Also the attack delay could have been simulated in that regard, like an reorg regain reduction to zero after an attack to simulate the reorganisation.
    So you would be able to attack after all, even with less org, of course..

    The current attack delay is imho a littel "odd", as you can't not even attack after SR, you can't even move at all. Thus limiting the units way more as "needed".
    Also it would help to prevent the cases where "counterattacks", f.e. throwing minor forces like HQ's into your way, forces you to wait again to cooldown the "attack delay".
    That would lead to a more fluent gameplay and "approach on reality" somehow. As you would/could be able to fight on until your org is too low..


    I think/hope you also read the other points I came up with and maybe they're helpful somehow.
    And I still would like to know if I misunderstand the red hatchings too.

    Thx for reading!
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  10. #50
    Oberkommando HOI4 Paradox Dev Team podcat's Avatar
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    hatching should be throughput problems. so if tooltip says its not there is a bug I think. could you upload a savegame where this situation has happened and I can debug it?
    Reject reason to make the impossible possible!

  11. #51
    AHOI-Mod Series Developer Demi Moderator Chromos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by podcat View Post
    hatching should be throughput problems. so if tooltip says its not there is a bug I think. could you upload a savegame where this situation has happened and I can debug it?
    Hi podcat,
    I'll make a save asap.

    Cheers,
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  12. #52
    AHOI-Mod Series Developer Demi Moderator Chromos's Avatar
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    Sorry for the dealy, I had to find out that I have some harddisk errors and thanks to SMART capabilities I can watch my good old harddisk pass slowly away..
    Anyway, here is the proposed info.

    4 Saves included, all with FTM 3.05 UBBY, and the '43 scenario started as GER, all on auto..
    I think it can easily be reproduced by everybody.
    save_games.7z

    I mostly looked at Küstrin, Schwedt an der Oder and Landsberg:
    All have same infra, terrain..
    While all have red hatchings, the background colour is different.
    And also the tooltips is sometime red(Schwedt)

    Schwedt:
    Local Supply: 2622.63 -Local Fuel: 271.10
    Required DS: 1540.15 -Fuel 229.99
    Received S: 1208.00(RED) -Fuel:229.99

    Küstrin:
    Local Supply: 2057.47 -Local Fuel: 229.99
    Required DS: 2057.47 -Fuel 229.99
    Received S: 1050.96 -Fuel:71.38

    Landsberg:
    Local Supply: 1734.21 -Local Fuel: 93.45
    Required DS: 1945.79 -Fuel 220.93
    Received S: 973.64 -Fuel:90.25


    Dubno and Luck have the same behaviour with the red tooltip.
    Dubno red while Luck normal..


    Some days later Küstrin and Landsberg have nearly the same amount of requirements but Küstrin stays in red hatchings and Landsberg not.

    Some days later again, Küstrin is able to receive 1714 Supply.. Some more later even 1926.76 supply.
    So the throughput can be higher as 1208.00 wich "lead to red hatching" in the first example in Schwedt or Landsberg. IIRC I had also in other restgames a higher troughput as 2500.



    It is somehow irritating if you see Provs with 3.5k local supply, required needs of 1.3k, received of 0.6k with red hatchings.. And some others with 900 local supply, required need of 700, received of 300 with red hatchings and red tooltips.(Like Szamotuly in the last save..)



    So my guessing is, that there is some other formula behind as the max throughput.
    Would be good to know how it works. It gave me quite some headaches in the past trying to understand what is going on.
    And if I just didn't get something obvious for all others, it would be also good to know.
    In the end I also would know the game better then.

    Cheers!
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  13. #53
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    As there was no dl so far, I just bump this thread so that it will hopefully not overlooked with all that ongoing patching work.

    Cheers,
    Chromos
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  14. #54
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    I would still like to be able to make supply dump units that can only be moved by SR or transports. If I place a supply dump in a port the AI will make and try to keep supply going to that port via convoys. One problem I see is no way of controlling or helping the "Supply system." If setting up supply dumps in friendly ports would help ensure supply to your forces and allied, I would be all for it. I would like to see the ability to do things like place a supply dump in England as the USA so I can supply my own units and if there is left over it could be dumped to the English capital. Same for say North Africa, setup one or more supply ports to ensure supply to my troops. As a unit you can "destroy" the supply dump if you choose, it could also be "captured" whre a % of the supplies could be recovered. I think this way if you capture several damaged ports or whatever, you can gain some supply from each dump this way allowing for operations like Operation Overlord to actually work. I hate how a single port is used for supplying large areas , where with a supply depot unit you could which and how many ports are supplying your troops. Also supply dumps could be a way one ally helps another ally with supplies if needed.

    I think the current system works, but does not work as well as desired. Why can't the US setup a convoy from washington DC to say Los Angeles to help supply on the west coast? A supply dump system could help ensure supplies get to where you want. Sometimes even with ports built up I get stupid situations with lack of supply. Like if you put say an army in Newyork, the can get out of supply even with the entire region between Washington DC and New York being all 10 infrastructure. Being able to attach say a supply dump to a HQ unit seems to be a good way to hand things, maybe Double suppy transportation capacity from your capital to any supply dump. Allow each supply dump hold so much supplies and fuel. Make the unit expensive enough that they can't be spammed, or maybe give each country one and one for every 100 ICs availiable. So that you can increase supplies where you need.

    What I am trying to do here is to figure a way that supply can work as you want without alot of complexity. The current system works fine most of the time but there are always problems where if we had a way to control some of the way the system works it could be alot better. when I said port above, I meant port and or airport. There is one thing about using supply drops and another to supply via airbase to airbase or port to port.
    We have convoys and escourts, why couldn't we also have a setup for transport planes to be like convoys, where they go from airbase to airbase delivering supplies to where you want? Being abstract like convoys.
    Last edited by azedalis; 08-05-2012 at 16:42.
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  15. #55
    Covert Mastermind Demi Moderator Secret Master's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by azedalis View Post
    Why can't the US setup a convoy from washington DC to say Los Angeles to help supply on the west coast?
    You can do this now. LA is more than 10 provinces away from DC, and you can easily set up a manual supply convoy. I did it just the other day to help keep some CTFs operating out of LA in proper fuel and supply.
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  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Secret Master View Post
    You can do this now. LA is more than 10 provinces away from DC, and you can easily set up a manual supply convoy. I did it just the other day to help keep some CTFs operating out of LA in proper fuel and supply.
    The question is whether the AI is capable of doing this.

  17. #57
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    I have identified one floor that exsists and have asked for it to be answered with only comsubpac answering me. Kodus to him

    When you set supply convoy to a port, supply will be used from that port primary so long as it is not land linked to your capital, once it is land units will start to draw from your capital again. This really makes no sence to me and as comsubpac has taught me that is the way it is, but is does make supply hard to manage.

    Yes the major supply issues are generally because someone has failed to deal with one of the problems listed on page one, but in terms of how most of HOI3 is very in deepth in terms of micro management (if you choose to) it surprises me that we can't also do more to mirco manage the supply.

    Why for example can we dictate the route that supply should take on the supply map? Armies in WW2 would logically pick there own routes for major supply lines. This would also allow all the difficulies that are imposed to supply to still impact on you, however you would be able to at least pick the rout of least resistance.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chromos View Post
    Sorry for the dealy, I had to find out that I have some harddisk errors and thanks to SMART capabilities I can watch my good old harddisk pass slowly away..
    Anyway, here is the proposed info.

    4 Saves included, all with FTM 3.05 UBBY, and the '43 scenario started as GER, all on auto..
    I think it can easily be reproduced by everybody.
    save_games.7z


    I mostly looked at Küstrin, Schwedt an der Oder and Landsberg:
    All have same infra, terrain..
    While all have red hatchings, the background colour is different.
    And also the tooltips is sometime red(Schwedt)

    Schwedt:
    Local Supply: 2622.63 -Local Fuel: 271.10
    Required DS: 1540.15 -Fuel 229.99
    Received S: 1208.00(RED) -Fuel:229.99

    Küstrin:
    Local Supply: 2057.47 -Local Fuel: 229.99
    Required DS: 2057.47 -Fuel 229.99
    Received S: 1050.96 -Fuel:71.38

    Landsberg:
    Local Supply: 1734.21 -Local Fuel: 93.45
    Required DS: 1945.79 -Fuel 220.93
    Received S: 973.64 -Fuel:90.25


    Dubno and Luck have the same behaviour with the red tooltip.
    Dubno red while Luck normal..


    Some days later Küstrin and Landsberg have nearly the same amount of requirements but Küstrin stays in red hatchings and Landsberg not.

    Some days later again, Küstrin is able to receive 1714 Supply.. Some more later even 1926.76 supply.
    So the throughput can be higher as 1208.00 wich "lead to red hatching" in the first example in Schwedt or Landsberg. IIRC I had also in other restgames a higher troughput as 2500.



    It is somehow irritating if you see Provs with 3.5k local supply, required needs of 1.3k, received of 0.6k with red hatchings.. And some others with 900 local supply, required need of 700, received of 300 with red hatchings and red tooltips.(Like Szamotuly in the last save..)



    So my guessing is, that there is some other formula behind as the max throughput.
    Would be good to know how it works. It gave me quite some headaches in the past trying to understand what is going on.
    And if I just didn't get something obvious for all others, it would be also good to know.
    In the end I also would know the game better then.

    Cheers!
    Chromos
    Is this happening because in Szamotuly there is a big drop off in Inf compaired to the reagions before, but the AI is not expeciting it so it incountering problems in is caluations?

    Glad someone elce has riased this issue!!!!

  19. #59
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    Supply needs to be able to be assisted . Someone said you can use a supply route form capital to a port 10 spaces away, it seems only to work sometimes and it also means you must control all your supply routes since once you turn it back over to the AI it will remove it...but what if you had 2 small ports in an invasion area, will the supply system use both ports, I doubt it. And that might be needed, like invading the coast of china, all those small ports will have a problem supplying a large force. Also for USA, why can't USA supply its own troops in a foreign country like the Phillipines. Why should you have to rely on the Phillipenos to supply you. Why can't you boost the supply of an Ally or puppet? If I have troops in their country I want to supply my forces to not be a burden on them if at all possible. These type of problems is the reason I got the idea of Supply Dump Units. It will let you have some control over Supply Paths and allow multiple supply paths to the same area if this is what you want/need. I really don't want to have to mess with supply too much, just enough to help in certain situations where the supply AI becomes stupid and puts my units out of supply when it shouldn't. Supply Dumps should always be flagged for priority for recieving supplies. Infact if I want I should be able to give my puppets anything I want in the terms of supply and deliever it to them for free, but that is how I think it should work
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  20. #60
    Since I'm still learning the basics of actually moving military units and such I'm using arcade mode until I feel ready to tackle the actual logistics system. I have successfully invaded China with the logistics system enabled, but I found it too much to try and teach myself both logistics and combat mechanics at the same time.

    Anyway, my question is how supply works in arcade mode exactly. I know they draw supply directly from your supply stores, but after I have conducted an encirclement the enemy forces inside eventually get a "lack of supplies" combat modifier. It didn't occur right away, but it does come up after some period of time. I guess it is possible to cut units off from supply in arcade mode then?
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