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Thread: Please Devs explain the supply system again for "dummies" like me..

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    AHOI-Mod Series Developer Demi Moderator Chromos's Avatar
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    Smile Please Devs explain the supply system again for "dummies" like me..

    Hi,
    as I'm currently did some testing of the supply system I have some questions. Hopefully the Devs could answer here.

    First the colour sheme used in the supply map mode, is it like this below?:
    (taken from the various manuals)

    - black/grey: No supply need, unknown territory
    - green: Indicates there is an active supply line where supplies are getting through and meeting demand or are even higher.
    - "brown/dark yellow": Is an area where there is demand which is not quite met.
    - yellow: Same like "brown" but is an even more serious shortage,
    - red: Indicates units which are totally out of supply.
    - blue: Indicates there is a surplus of supplies.(Flowback from not needed Supply)

    The tooltips that pop up if we hoover the coursor over a prov in the supply map mode show:
    - The Province name(Owner)
    - Supplied form where(How many nodes away from the supply depot)
    - Local Supply and Local Fuel
    - Required Daily Supply/Fuel
    - Received Supply/Fuel

    Red hatching occurs when/why? I read that it should show "infra bottlenecks".
    But when I check ingame situations the tooltips tell a different story?
    (For testing, I used the unmodded HOI3 FTM 3.05 version, cheksum UBBY. And the '43 secanrio with GER, all on auto.)
    So it looks to me, that it occurs more if the difference between required and received is "pretty high", but what is the rough formula behind?
    Also I see most yellow Provs not on the Estern Front, but in China. But also the difference in required and received is then not big, and "brown" has sometimes bigger differences.. So quite the opposite to the infos in the manuals..
    Sometimes the numbers of the Received Supply are red, sometimes "normal yellow", why? What is this indicating?
    To show that I really looked up all I know, I post below all infos I could gather about supply and how it should work.
    I put it into spoiler tags because it is much..

    It would be very kind if we get an clear answer on this updated for FTM:
    - The Colours, changing from what colour to another, when/why?
    - Red hatching, when/why?
    - Turning form yellow in red numbers(Local Supply/Received Supply), why/when


    Even that I can guess why some things are like they are, it would really nice to know the real/intended reason.

    Thanks in advance,
    Chromos

    Part one of the official supply system infos I could gather in the spoilers below..

    From: "The Supply System Manual.pdf"

    HoI3 – The Supply System
    The basic principle of the supply system in Hearts of Iron 3 is, at heart, quite simple. Every distinct, connected collection of provinces under the control of the same alliance has one province that is considered the Supply Source. This is the capital city in the home area and a port in all other areas.
    When supplies are produced, they are proportionally injected directly into the core provinces that have IC in your home area. Supplies and fuel then propagate through the provinces by the following algorithm:
    1) Units in provinces consume the amount of supplies and fuel they need from the amount available in their province. (If there is not enough, the units start going ”out-of-supply”.)
    2) Starting with the provinces furthest from the Supply Source, all provinces try to draw the total amount of supplies and fuel required from surrounding provinces, first asking the province(s) closest to the Supply Source. The amount required is the sum of supplies and fuel needed by units in the province and the amount asked for by neighboring provinces.
    3) Surplus supplies and fuel in provinces are drawn back towards the Supply Source.
    So far so good, but there are two main factors complicating the system. First, the level of Infrastructure in a province puts a cap on the amount of supplies and fuel that can pass through each day. This can make it difficult to supply large armies in areas with poor Infrastructure, or past
    Infrastructure bottlenecks. Secondly, there is a ”tax” on supplies and fuel each time they are drawn to a neighboring province. This means that the further away from the Supply Source your units are, the more expensive they are to supply, and the greater strain they will put on your Infrastructure.

    Supplies from Allies
    If your units (this also applies to expeditionary forces you have sent) are in an area that has an allied province as Supply Source, they are effectively drawing supplies from that country, which could put a huge strain on their industry. What happens in this situation is that an automatic supply trade is created between you and your ally, where you are giving them the amount on supplies and fuel that your troops are drawing from them. Unfortunately, this trade is invisible and does not require a supply convoy, meaning it is safe from enemy predation. Hopefully, a better solution will be found down the road.

    Supply Convoys
    Supply convoys require an amount of transports proportional to the length of the route in order to operate at max capacity. Max capacity is determined by the port size in the end province only.
    Provided it has enough transports, the convoy will operate at needed capacity, pumping in as much supplies and fuel as needed in the area, but limited by what the receiving port can handle.
    If the troops in the area need more supplies than the Supply Source port can convoy in, additional convoys can be set up to other ports in the area. However, it is important to remember that the area still only has one Supply Source. This means that supplies from secondary ports might curve back
    towards the Supply Source on their path to the units that actually need them. This is quirky, but should not pose much of a problem.

    Why not trace direct Paths?
    People often ask for a supply system where each unit traces its own path to the nearest sufficient supply depot, and then pull supplies from it. This would be more accurate and would avoid the quirks of the HoI3 system. However, it would also be tremendously costly in terms of CPU use, and
    would make the game completely unplayable. (In computer science, the problem is known as the ”bottleneck travelling salesman problem”.)

    From: "SEMPER FI_MANUAL-Online.pdf"

    Supply and the Arcade Mode
    In Semper Fi, it is possible to set up convoys between different ports in the same map area that contains your capital province, provided they are more than 10 provinces distant from the capital. For example, the Soviet Union can now set up a convoy between Leningrad and Vladivostok. Since supplies are ”sucked” towards the units that need them, this can be useful if a province is very distant from the Capital (although the path the supplies travel from the receiving port of the convoy to the units that need them might take a short bend back towards the capital first, due to how the system works.)

    If you would prefer to avoid the headaches of logistics altogether, there is a new option in Semper Fi called ”Arcade Mode”. Before you start a new
    game, you can choose between Normal or Arcade Game Mode. In Arcade Mode, units draw fuel and supplies directly from the national stockpile, without
    penalties, regardless of their current location. Fuel and Supplies are not infused into the map provinces, the Logistics Map Mode is disabled, and supply convoys can no longer be set up (because there is no need for them.)

    From: "HOI3v13UpdateGuide.pdf"

    Supplies & Fuel
    The information on the Supply Mapmode has been improved. Before, there was a lack of clarity as to what each color represented. See the graphic to the right for more detail. The system of getting supplies to your units has been revamped in a number of ways. The movement of supplies across borders has been improved, so that you won’t start running out of supplies as you move across allied land. Overall, it seems a lot harder to cut units off from supply – both to pinch supply off by narrowing the corridor, and also by surrounding units, they seem to retain their supply status longer.

    New Supply Lines
    Tere’s no longer just one original distribution point for supplies and fuel (which used to be your capital). Now, any core IC (i.e. industrial centers within your home area) province which is connected in any way with your capital can be a source of supplies or fuel, so if part of your coun-
    try begins to get cut off, you still have a portion of your supply that can reach that area. If these core provinces get cut off from the capital
    by enemy action, so that you cannot trace a line of controlled provinces to it, then it will still be cut off from supplies. On a practical level this may not be the disaster it used to be, because units in v1.3 still seem to be capable of independent action for a longer period of time without
    having access to renewed supply. Lastly, units which run out of fuel will not get completely “stuck” in v1.3 as they did in earlier versions.
    Tose units which should get stuck because they’re completely cut off, will still be stuck, but those which in previous versions would seemingly have access to fuel but didn’t get it should not recur in v1.3.

    ###pic####
    The Supply Mapmode: In the revamped mapmode, gray is the default color for enemy or neutral territory (places where you are unaware of the supply status because they’re not yours). Green indicates there is an active supply line where supplies are getting through and meeting demand. Brown is an area where there is demand which is not quite met. Yellow is a more serious shortage, and red indicates units which are totally out of supply. You will no longer see red in provinces where there’s no demand to be met. A blue color indicates there is a surplus of supplies.

    Paradrop Supply
    For those of you who might have experienced out-of-supply penalties when paradropping, this will now not happen until they’ve used up their inherent supply stockpiles.
    Another situation some may have run into is combining two paratroop divisions in a drop, you might have found them “attacking from different directions” and therefore adding to the combat frontage. Tis has been fixed, and they will fight together as if they share a landing spot.

    From: "hoi3 reference.pdf"

    [20.0] SUPPLY & LOGISTICS
    Summary
    Veteran Hearts of Iron players are familiar with the concept of Transport Capacity, which has been eliminated in HOI 3 and replaced with a much more
    realistic system, as follows…

    Also note that with Strategic Redeployment, your units no longer use the “beam me up” system, where they disappear and later reappear in another location, but instead in HOI 3 units are hurried along fast railway lines where they are visible and vulnerable to enemy air attack.

    [20.1] INFRASTRUCTURE
    General Rule;
    Infrastructure is the system of roads and railways which make it easier to get from place to place without getting your feet all muddy. Infrastructure greatly affects important things such as how quickly units can move through the province, and how efficiently Supplies can transit through en route to your units.
    Commentary;
    Infrastructure is a measure of how “built up” the territory is and, more to the point, how easy it is to transport military forces or supplies through the province. A simple “line-of-sight” to your supply source does not guarantee a unit will be in supply – there has to be sufficient “throughput” (which is supported by infrastructure) to allow enough supplies to get through for all the units reliant upon those roads or railways.
    Yes, you can stack 100 divisions in one province, but if you do they’ll start losing strength because you can only supply a few of them. Units which
    can’t get supplies cannot fight attrition with reinforcements, nor may they recover organisation, if they’ve recently been in battle.
    Units in countries which have low infrastructure will constantly be fighting to get enough supplies. On the long-term, the way to improve this is by building higher infrastructure, or building higher level naval bases if the theatre is overseas. On the short term, more highly skilled commanders at the corps level, and higher throughput technology may help. Sometimes, just letting units in a region rest may allow them to regain their supply, because units which are sitting still use supplies at a slower rate than those in combat. Another option would be to open a new source of supply nearby, which uses different the throughput from new provinces to transport supplies. This might be done by capturing a new naval base, or even constructing one along a friendly shore. Long term combat strategy requires strong infrastructure channels through your country which can be used to get your armies where they need to go. Invasions of another country are made easier by strong infrastructure there, as well. On the other hand, you always run the risk of allowing your enemies to use your infrastructure against you if you are on the defensive. You should build infrastructure
    in areas you feel are secure, but where you expect to need to support large numbers of divisions. Once captured enemy territory becomes secure, it would be good to improve the infrastructure there, too.
    The rate at which your units repair is also dependent partly upon the infrastructure in the province where it is. However, unlike previous games, the rate of resource production in a province can only be improved through technology.
    Be especially careful while using “forward airbases,” where the base is very close to the front lines, because these bases will draw upon the same
    supply throughput as the units at the front. You may find your air units and your land units are interfering with each others’ supply.
    Supply tax can be a serious drain on your Supply stockpile, so as your empire grows or as your armies move into enemy territory, your supply needs will gradually increase. It will get worse if rain or melting snow is causing mud along your routes.
    Supply is easier through provinces you own, (i.e. not in occupied territory).
    If you’re having systemic supply problems, like armies in Russian or Chinese territory often do, attacking only makes the problem worse, because it
    increases the draw on supplies. Resolve your supply issues first, and then attack. If there’s no way to effectively solve the issue, then attack sparingly or invest your attack strength into trying to open better supply routes.
    If you’re wandering around behind enemy lines, it’s possible to capture enemy supplies and make use of them yourself. You may collect those supplies
    moving through the province at that moment, or you may even be able to capture an enemy depot.
    It’s sometimes useful to take just a few days to prepare an army for a new offensive, because if you’ve just moved forward it’s going to take a
    couple of days for the supply lines to adjust and fully prepare you to move forward unless you are willing to do so without a fully established supply line. Your units may also need to refill their 30-day reserves, and this period does well to restore any strength or organisation they may have fallen behind on, too.

    Cases;
    [20.11] A province’s Infrastructure level is displayed in its Province Interface, which can be seen by clicking on the province.

    [20.12] There is also a useful Infrastructure Mapmode that provides a good overview.

    [20.13] Infrastructure represents how “built up” a province is, or perhaps “how civilized.” Improving things like roads, railways, and communication
    networks in a province will increase that province’s Infrastructure level.

    [20.14] Being the site of Combat, bombings, or other hostile attacks can reduce a province’s Infrastructure level.

    [20.15] New Infrastructure may be constructed in Provinces (Hexes) by clicking on the Infrastructure icon in the province screen, which will enter the Infrastructure construction into the Production Queue. It will take one year to produce and cost 1 IC. Once constructed, it will gradually come into being over the course of several days as a new point of Infrastructure.

    [20.16] Damage to a province’s Infrastructure will temporarily lower the effective ability of that province to meet its potential Supply Throughput.

    [20.2] THROUGHPUT
    General Rule
    Throughput is the volume of Supplies you can fit through a province per day (which is enabled or limited by the Infrastructure level). Imagine two-ton trucks lined up bumper-to-bumper on a narrow, muddy road.

    ###pic###
    “However will we explain this to the Führer?!” The cut-off province of Orynyn shows a need of 3.56 Supplies, but a Throughput of zero, which is bad for the surrounded Unit (it will draw from its 30-day reserve at first).

    [20.21] Your Supply Throughput is limited by the province with the lowest Infrastructure along the Supply path, because it becomes a bottleneck. Your
    Supply sergeants will try to route through other paths if one becomes too crowded, but on busy fronts, those other routes may experience traffic
    jams too.

    [20.22] Some Technologies may allow you to increase your Throughput of Supplies per Infrastructure point.

    [20.23] Technologies may also reduce each unit’s Supply consumption.

    [20.3] SUPPLY & SUPPLY LINES
    General Rule
    Every province, and every Unit within that province, draws supply from a central province in your rear area. Supplies for your armies must be able to move from their centralized Depot to your units without being intercepted. Supplies move along the Supply Line at the rate of one province per day, until they catch up to the unit they are supposed to Supply.

    [20.31] Moving Units & Supply Lag
    When a unit moves, its new location filters back through the lines, and new orders for Supply are directed to the unit’s new location. This filtering
    process creates a lag, which may delay the Supply of the unit. It may take a day or two for the Supply Line to fully adjust and begin delivering supplies to the unit’s new location.
    If new units which require supplies move into a province, you may see the Mapmode colours turn from green (Supplied) to brown (partially Supplied),
    indicating that the rate of Supply cannot keep up with the increased demand from the additional units.

    [20.32] Supply Routes
    The Supply route is flexible. If the logistics management system cannot draw sufficient Supply through one province, it will search for other routes
    to deliver the necessary amount.
    Supply can’t go through lakes or other large bodies of water (except for straits, unless they’re blocked by enemy naval units), so large lakes can be useful terrain features if you’re trying to isolate or constrict supply to a group of enemy units. Examine the infrastructure map to see which provinces are obvious routes for supply, and use your divisions and airpower to try to cut off those routes.

    ###
    Pretty sure it follows the shortest route from source to destination. Doesn’t care about infra levels. I think you can determine the route by clicking on a unit in the source location and issuing it a movement order to the destination.
    You can test verify it by looking at the supply map - you should see a green route for the most part from the source to your dest. - at least parts of the route should be green
    ###

    [20.33] 30 day Supply Reserve
    Units have a 30-day reserve of Supplies, which may become exhausted if the unit is constantly running ahead of its supplies.

    [20.34] Overseas Supply
    Overseas Supply is limited by the size of the Seaport taking in the Supplies. Sometimes, though, because of the sheer length of overland Supply lines, it may still be more efficient to direct Supply by sea.

    [20.35] Supply Tax
    Since the process of transporting Supplies uses Supplies (Fuel, etc.), there is a small Supply cost per province, which can add up over distance. If any part of the Supply Line route passes through Muddy Ground, that portion of the Line is impacted by an extra cost of transportation (“supply tax”).
    There’s a higher supply tax for provinces you control but do not own (i.e. occupied land).

    [20.36] Logistics Technology
    Technology Research can improve your ability to move Supplies. It can also reduce the Supply consumption rates of your units, though good Leader
    Skills or Traits can do this as well.

    [20.4] OUT OF SUPPLY
    Units that are out of Supply will not be able to recover Organisation, will not Reinforce, and cannot Upgrade. What units are or are not in Supply is
    recalculated each day.
    Units which find themselves temporarily out of supply may suffer from partial Unsupply, and will feel the effects of that inefficiency. These units will draw upon their 30-day reserve before they actually go out of Supply (i.e. Before they start feeling the effects).
    Extended periods of time outside of Supply will seriously degrade the fighting Strength of the unit.

    [20.41] Supply Mapmode
    It is highly recommended that you examine the map in Logistics Mapmode to get an idea of how your Supply situation is being handled. The use of the
    Logistics Mapmode is explained in Case [4.77]. Overseas Trade Routes are marked with red and blue lines, extending the length of the Route.

    [20.5] OIL & FUEL
    HOI 3 separates the traditional Resource of Oil so that there is Crude Oil on the one hand and Refined Fuel on the other.
    Crude Oil is a Resource produced at certain locations, which must then be transported back to the home country, where it will be Refined at a rate
    that depends on your actual IC, modified by Technology.
    Refined Fuel will then become available to your units at home, and can then be transported to your units via Convoys or Supply Lines.
    You can Trade for either Oil or Fuel on the world market, which is the preferred method of meeting your Fuel needs; it’s cheaper than converting from
    Energy.

    Every country has a limited ability to Convert Energy Resources to Oil, which basically takes the Energy and turns it to Oil using a wastefully
    inefficient ratio. It is preferred that you meet your Fuel needs by refining Oil.

    [20.6] CONVOYS
    Summary
    If your country has territory in a location geographically separated from your capital, you will need to maintain some sort of Supply connection. If
    a connection is not maintained with the distant territory, you may quickly lose it during wartime.
    Presumably, you will also have some military forces assigned there, which will need Supplies to operate.
    As noted in B3.0, it is the buyer of a resource on the world market who must transport those goods on his own transport ships if the goods must be transported overseas.
    You can only attach escorts to convoys while you’re at war. Otherwise they sit in a pool, waiting.

    [20.61] Assigning Covoys
    To send Supplies overseas, you will need to build and assign Convoys. Conveys are made of collections of cargo ships and tankers that carry
    Supplies and Fuel in groups, making them easier to protect and more secure from enemy attack.
    Resource Trades also require Convoys. The country making the offer is also required to provide the ships to carry the Trade. If the Convoy cannot make it to the purchasing home country, those items Traded for are lost.
    Convoys are managed through the Production Interface. At the bottom-right is a list of your current Trade Routes, describing the Resources being traded but not the Convoys themselves. Below that is a detailed list of all of your Convoys, both those for Resource transport and Supply transport. The list shows origin, destination, cargo carried, and the number of assigned Convoy points and Escort points. The number of Reserve Transports and
    Escorts are listed above the display.
    In order to set up a Convoy, click on the “Create Convoy” button just underneath the Available Escort figure. A display will come up, asking what the
    Convoy’s Origin will be with a list of origination Seaports. Once you select an Origin, you must select its Destination in the same way, by picking from a list of overseas Seaports Controlled by you.

    ###pic###
    Convoys can be created automatically, if you select that option, so long as you have available Convoy Ships. Escorts will be added, too, if they are
    available.

    A formula is used to determine where along a Convoy Route the Convoy is actually located. If there are enemy Submarines or surface ships in the
    Seazone, there is a chance they may be able to attack the Convoy. If a Convoy is damaged, the Resources or Supplies being carried will be lost in proportion to the number of Freighters sunk.
    If a Seazone starts to get hit with attacks by Submarines or a Convoy Raider, the Convoy management system will automatically adjust the
    Convoy Route to avoid the dangerous area. This is an ongoing process that should make Convoy Raiding a guessing game for the enemy.
    Aside from the Convoy Escorts assigned through the normal Convoy system, Ships from your Naval Bases may also be assigned to Patrol and guard
    specific Convoy Routes. These Ships will travel along the assigned Route and try to engage any Submarines, but this will be more difficult than
    locating surface Ships. Any Class of Ship may be assigned to this duty, but Destroyer Flotillas are the most effective at finding Submarines. See Case [33.11] for more information on this Naval Mission assignment.

    [20.62] Naval Bases
    The size of the Naval Base determines how large the stockpile can be, as well as how fast it can replenish its stockpile.
    It also determines how quickly Ships which Base there can regain Organisation and Repair their Strength.

    [20.63] Convoy Escort Example (See Examples)

    [20.64] Supply/Fuel Depots
    A Supply Convoy can leave a Stockpile of Supplies at a Naval Base, from which all nearby Provinces (Hexes) will draw their Supplies. This will be the
    central distribution point, and all nearby units will have to maintain some kind of contact with this Depot in order to remain in Supply. There are no overseas Resource stockpiles – you must ship all Resources home, or they will be lost.

    [20.65] Escorts
    You will also want to build and assign Escorts to protect your Convoys from Raiding and Submarines.
    Otherwise, your Convoys may be sunk faster than you can build replacements.
    Escort points are produced the same way as Convoy points, and Escort points are produced and assigned the same way as Convoy points.

    [20.66] Logistics Interdiction & Convoy Raiding
    Land units may interfere with enemy Supply Lines by physically occupying Provinces (Hexes) through which the Supply Lines travel. It is possible to
    capture or destroy Supplies when overrunning enemy Supply Lines. A portion of captured Supplies may be used for your own units – this may be just
    what you need if you’ve advanced ahead of your own Supply Lines!
    Logistical Airstrikes can create additional hardship for the Supply of outlying units. This is done by Bombing the Infrastructure of Provinces(Hexes)
    along the path of Supply. These Logistical Strikes temporarily destroy Infrastructure and permanently destroy Supplies, meaning the enemy may be out of Supply for a day.
    Convoys, of course, can be attacked at sea by enemy naval forces such as Submarines or Convoy Raiders.
    Aircraft can also attack Convoy Routes at sea.
    Sinking Convoys will interrupt the provision of Supplies by sea, and may place units out of Supply.

    [20.7] FLEET SUPPLY
    [20.71] A Fleet is always connected to a home Naval Base, and draws its Supply from that Base, even while it’s not there.

    [20.72] So long as the Base has sufficient Supply for the Fleet, and the Fleet has not surpassed its maximum range before returning to Base, it will
    remain In Supply.

    [20.73] If it is unable to reach a Naval Base before surpassing its maximum range, its speed will slow considerably.

    [20.8] AIRDROP OF SUPPLY

    [20.81] There is an Air Mission for Transport Planes to deliver a limited number of Supplies by air to distant or cut-off units.

    [20.82] The Supplies are drawn from what’s available at the Airbase from where the flight originates.

    [20.9] STRATEGIC REDEPLOYMENT
    General Rule
    Strategic Redeployment is a method of quickly moving units by train from one area to the next.
    Commentary;
    Land units using strategic redeployment will move at what’s essentially a speed of 20, modified by the infrastructure level. They will lose 1 point of organisation every day. Supply costs will be double.
    Theoretically, there is an infrastructure-based cap on strategic redeployment, because these units will still need supply (in fact, they will need more of it) to travel along their route. However, they will not need fuel, which may be a useful point.
    Consider using strategic redeployment to move your units if you’re short on fuel. Not only is it faster, but it also costs you supplies, rather than fuel. You can SR most places, including into combat, though that’s risky because you also lose organisation. You can come to just within range, though, and then move forward.
    SR reduces the organization of your units, so they will not be as prepared to fight. Because of this it’s a bad idea to use strategic redeployment to carry your units straight into combat. But there’s no rule against it, and at times it may seem a useful tactic to get your units into combat more quickly.

    Cases;
    [20.91] They may move ahead of their Supply line and will carry Supplies with them, which should hold them over until Supply can be re-established.

    [20.92] Strategically Redeploying units will move them at a speed of 20 KPH per point of Infrastructure level, so actual speed will vary
    according to the Infrastructure levels along the route.

    [20.93] These units will lose 1 Organisation per day, and will use twice as much in Supplies.

    [20.94] Units that use Fuel, such as tanks, will not consume Fuel while being Strategically Redeployed.

    [20.95] To strategically move a unit press Ctrl and select the unit.

    [20.96] Strategic Redeployment does not cost fuel – it costs additional supplies. It also reduces organisation, and may also cause the unit to have an attack delay.

    [20.97] Units move at a speed of 20, which is applied differently depending on the infrastructure of the province (just as with any other unit’s speed).

    [20.98] Can not SR through another country. One must SR to your border, then move into the country's province, then SR in that country to to the border, then move out of the country into the next province.

    Last edited by Chromos; 16-04-2012 at 10:27.
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    Part two of the official supply system infos I could gather in the spoilers below..


    From: "hoi3 manual.pdf"

    *H*
    SUPPLY & LOGISTICS

    Veteran Hearts of Iron players are familiar with the concept
    of Transport Capacity, which has been eliminated in HOI 3 and
    replaced with a much more realistic system, as follows…
    Also note that with Strategic Redeployment, your units
    no longer use the “beam me up” system, where they disap-
    pear and later reappear in another location, but instead in
    HOI 3 units are hurried along fast railway lines where they
    are visible and vulnerable to enemy air attack.

    H1.0 Infrastructure
    Infrastructure is the system of roads and railways which
    make it easier to get from place to place without getting
    your feet all muddy. Infrastructure greatly affects impor-
    tant things such as how quickly units can move through the
    province, and how efficiently Supplies can transit through
    en route to your units.
    A province’s Infrastructure level is displayed in its Province
    Interface, which can be seen by clicking on the province. There
    is also a useful Infrastructure Mapmode that provides a good
    overview. Infrastructure represents how “built up” a province
    is, or perhaps “how civilized.” Improving things like roads, rail-
    ways, and communication networks in a province will increase
    that province’s Infrastructure level. Being the site of Combat,
    bombings, or other hostile attacks can reduce a province’s
    Infrastructure level.
    New Infrastructure may be constructed in provinces by
    clicking on the Infrastructure icon in the province screen,
    which will enter the Infrastructure construction into the
    Production Queue. It will take one year to produce and cost
    1 IC. Once constructed, it will gradually come into being over
    the course of several days as a new point of Infrastructure.
    Damage to a province’s Infrastructure will temporarily
    lower the effective ability of that province to meet its poten-
    tial Supply Throughput.

    H2.0 Throughput
    Throughput is the volume of Supplies you can fit through
    a province per day (which is enabled or limited by the
    Infrastructure level). Imagine two-ton trucks lined up
    bumper-to-bumper on a narrow, muddy road.

    ###pic###
    “However will we explain this to the Führer?!” The cut-off
    province of Orynyn shows a need of 3.56 Supplies, but a
    Throughput of zero, which is bad for the surrounded Unit
    (it will draw from its 30-day reserve at first).
    Your Supply Throughput is limited by the province with
    the lowest Infrastructure along the Supply path, because
    it becomes a bottleneck. Your Supply sergeants will try to
    route through other paths if one becomes too crowded, but
    on busy fronts, those other routes may experience traffic
    jams too.

    H3.0 Logistics Technology
    Some Technologies may allow you to increase your
    Throughput of Supplies per Infrastructure point. Technologies
    may also reduce each unit’s Supply consumption.

    H4.0 Supply & Supply Lines
    Every province, and every Unit within that province, draws
    supply from a central province in your rear area. Supplies
    for your armies must be able to move from their centralized
    Depot to your units without being intercepted.
    Supplies move along the Supply Line at the rate of one
    province per day, until they catch up to the unit they are
    supposed to Supply. When a unit moves, its new location
    filters back through the lines, and new orders for Supply
    are directed to the unit’s new location. This filtering pro-
    cess creates a lag, which may delay the Supply of the unit.
    It may take a day or two for the Supply Line to fully adjust
    and begin delivering supplies to the unit’s new location. If
    new units which require supplies move into a province, you
    may see the Mapmode colours turn from green (Supplied)
    to brown (partially Supplied), indicating that the rate of
    Supply cannot keep up with the increased demand from the
    additional units. The Supply route is flexible. If the logistics
    management system cannot draw sufficient Supply through
    one province, it will search for other routes to deliver the
    necessary amount.
    Units have a 30-day reserve of Supplies, which may
    become exhausted if the unit is constantly running ahead
    of its supplies.
    Overseas Supply is limited by the size of the Seaport
    taking in the Supplies. Sometimes, though, because of the
    sheer length of overland Supply lines, it may still be more
    efficient to direct Supply by sea.

    H4.1 suPPly tax
    Since the process of transporting Supplies uses Supplies
    (Fuel, etc.), there is a small Supply cost per province, which
    can add up over distance. If any part of the Supply Line route
    passes through Muddy Ground, that portion of the Line is
    impacted by an extra cost of transportation (“supply tax”).

    H5.0 Out of Supply
    Units that are out of Supply will not be able to recover
    Organisation, will not Reinforce, and cannot Upgrade. What
    units are or are not in Supply is recalculated each day.
    Units which find themselves temporarily out of supply
    may suffer from partial Unsupply, and will feel the effects
    of that inefficiency. These units will draw upon their 30-day
    reserve before they actually go out of Supply (i.e. before
    they start feeling the effects).
    Extended periods of time outside of Supply will seriously
    degrade the fighting Strength of the unit.

    H6.0 Supply Mapmode
    It is highly recommended that you examine the map in
    Logistics Mapmode to get an idea of how your Supply situ-
    ation is being handled. The use of the Logistics Mapmode is
    explained in A4.8. Overseas Trade Routes are marked with
    red and blue lines, extending the length of the Route.

    H7.0 Oil & Fuel
    HOI 3 separates the traditional Resource of Oil so that there
    is Crude Oil on the one hand and Refined Fuel on the other.
    Crude Oil is a Resource produced at certain locations, which
    must then be transported back to the home country, where
    it will be Refined at a rate that depends on your actual IC,
    modified by Technology.
    Refined Fuel will then become available to your units
    at home, and can then be transported to your units via

    Convoys or Supply Lines.
    You can Trade for either Oil or Fuel on the world market,
    which is the preferred method of meeting your Fuel needs;
    it’s cheaper than converting from Energy.
    Every country has a limited ability to Convert Energy
    Resources to Oil, which basically takes the Energy and turns
    it to Oil using a wastefully inefficient ratio. It is preferred
    that you meet your Fuel needs by refining Oil.

    H8.0 Convoys
    If your country has territory in a location geographically
    separated from your capital, you will need to maintain some
    sort of Supply connection. If a connection is not maintained
    with the distant territory, you may quickly lose it during war-
    time. Presumably, you will also have some military forces
    assigned there, which will need Supplies to operate.
    To send Supplies overseas, you will need to build and
    assign Convoys. Conveys are made of collections of cargo
    ships and tankers that carry Supplies and Fuel in groups,
    making them easier to protect and more secure from enemy
    attack. Resource Trades also require Convoys. The country
    making the offer is also required to provide the ships to
    carry the Trade. If the Convoy cannot make it to the purchas-
    ing home country, those items Traded for are lost.
    Convoys are managed through the Production Interface.
    At the bottom-right is a list of your current Trade Routes,
    describing the Resources being traded but not the Convoys
    themselves. Below that is a detailed list of all of your
    Convoys, both those for Resource transport and Supply
    transport. The list shows origin, destination, cargo car-
    ried, and the number of assigned Convoy points and Escort
    points. The number of Reserve Transports and Escorts are
    listed above the display.
    In order to set up a Convoy, click on the “Create Convoy”
    button just underneath the Available Escort figure. A display
    will come up, asking what the Convoy’s Origin will be with a
    list of origination Seaports. Once you select an Origin, you
    must select its Destination in the same way, by picking from
    a list of overseas Seaports Controlled by you.

    ###pic###
    Convoys can be created automatically, if you select that op-
    tion, so long as you have available Convoy Ships. Escorts will
    be added, too, if they are available.
    A formula is used to determine where along a Convoy
    Route the Convoy is actually located. If there are enemy
    Submarines or surface ships in the Seazone, there is a
    chance they may be able to attack the Convoy. If a Convoy
    is damaged, the Resources or Supplies being carried will be
    lost in proportion to the number of Freighters sunk.
    If a Seazone starts to get hit with attacks by Submarines
    or a Convoy Raider, the Convoy management system will au-
    tomatically adjust the Convoy Route to avoid the dangerous
    area. This is an ongoing process that should make Convoy
    Raiding a guessing game for the enemy.
    Aside from the Convoy Escorts assigned through the nor-
    mal Convoy system, Ships from your Naval Bases may also be
    assigned to Patrol and guard specific Convoy Routes. These
    Ships will travel along the assigned Route and try to engage
    any Convoy Raiders. They will also hunt for Submarines, but
    this will be more difficult than locating surface Ships. Any
    Class of Ship may be assigned to this duty, but Destroyer
    Flotillas are the most effective at finding Submarines. See N1.1
    for more information on this Naval Mission assignment.

    H8.1 naval bases
    The size of the Naval Base determines how large the stock-
    pile can be, as well as how fast it can replenish its stockpile.
    It also determines how quickly Ships which Base there can
    regain Organisation and Repair their Strength.

    H8.2 suPPly/fuel dePots
    A Supply Convoy can leave a Stockpile of Supplies at a
    Naval Base, from which all nearby provinces will draw their
    Supplies. This will be the central distribution point, and all
    nearby units will have to maintain some kind of contact
    with this Depot in order to remain in Supply. There are no
    overseas Resource stockpiles – you must ship all Resources
    home, or they will be lost.

    H8.3 escorts
    You will also want to build and assign Escorts to protect
    your Convoys from Raiding and Submarines. Otherwise,
    your Convoys may be sunk faster than you can build re-
    placements. Escort points are produced the same way as
    Convoy points, and Escort points are produced and assigned
    the same way as Convoy points.

    H8.4 logIstIcs InterdIctIon & convoy raIdIng
    Land units may interfere with enemy Supply Lines by physi-
    cally occupying provinces through which the Supply Lines
    travel. It is possible to capture or destroy Supplies when over-
    running enemy Supply Lines. A portion of captured Supplies
    may be used for your own units – this may be just what you
    need if you’ve advanced ahead of your own Supply Lines!
    Logistical Airstrikes can create additional hardship for
    the Supply of outlying units. This is done by Bombing the
    Infrastructure of provinces along the path of Supply. These
    Logistical Strikes temporarily destroy Infrastructure and
    permanently destroy Supplies, meaning the enemy may be
    out of Supply for a day.
    Convoys, of course, can be attacked at sea by enemy na-
    val forces such as Submarines or Convoy Raiders. Aircraft
    can also attack Convoy Routes at sea. Sinking Convoys will
    interrupt the provision of Supplies by sea, and may place
    units out of Supply.

    H9.0 Fleet Supply
    A Fleet is always connected to a home Naval Base, and draws
    its Supply from that Base, even while it’s not there. So long
    as the Base has sufficient Supply for the Fleet, and the Fleet
    has not surpassed its maximum range before returning to
    Base, it will remain In Supply. If it is unable to reach a Naval
    Base before surpassing its maximum range, its speed will
    slow considerably.

    H10.0 Airdrop of Supply
    There is an Air Mission for Transport Planes to deliver a
    limited number of Supplies by air to distant or cut-off units.
    The Supplies are drawn from what’s available at the Airbase
    from where the flight originates.

    H11.0 Logistics Technology
    Technology Research can improve your ability to move
    Supplies. It can also reduce the Supply consumption rates
    of your units, though good Leader Skills or Traits can do
    this as well.

    H12.0 Strategic Redeployment
    Strategic Redeployment is a method of quickly moving units
    by train from one area to the next. They may move ahead of
    their Supply line and will carry Supplies with them, which
    should hold them over until Supply can be re-established.
    Strategically Redeploying units will move them at a
    speed of 20 MPH per point of Infrastructure level, so actual
    speed will vary according to the Infrastructure levels along
    the route. These units will lose 1 Organisation per day, and
    will use twice as much in Supplies. Units that use Fuel, such
    as tanks, will not consume Fuel while being Strategically
    Redeployed.


    From: "HOI3 - StrategyGuide - US.pdf"

    ***
    Logistics & Supply
    Logistics are an important part of any major operation. You have to make
    sure your divisions have enough supplies to begin the offensive efficiently,
    and you must ensure when they get where you sent them, they have
    enough supplies and fuel to hold the territory and keep on going.
    Infrastructure & Throughput
    Infrastructure is a measure of how “built up” the territory is and, more to
    the point, how easy it is to transport military forces or supplies through
    the province. A simple “line-of-sight” to your supply source does not
    guarantee a unit will be in supply – there has to be sufficient “throughput”
    (which is supported by infrastructure) to allow enough supplies to get
    through for all the units reliant upon those roads or railways.
    Yes, you can stack 100 divisions in one province, but if you do they’ll
    start losing strength because you can only supply a few of them. Units
    which can’t get supplies cannot fight attrition with reinforcements, nor
    may they recover organisation, if they’ve recently been in battle.
    Units in countries which have low infrastructure will constantly be
    fighting to get enough supplies. On the long-term, the way to improve
    this is by building higher infrastructure, or building higher level naval
    bases if the theatre is overseas. On the short term, more highly skilled
    commanders at the corps level, and higher throughput technology may
    help. Sometimes, just letting units in a region rest may allow them to
    regain their supply, because units which are sitting still use supplies at a
    slower rate than those in combat. Another option would be to open a new
    source of supply nearby, which uses different the throughput from new
    provinces to transport supplies. This might be done by capturing a new
    naval base, or even constructing one along a friendly shore.
    Long term combat strategy requires strong infrastructure channels
    through your country which can be used to get your armies where they
    need to go. Invasions of another country are made easier by strong
    nfrastructure there, as well. On the other hand, you always run the risk of
    allowing your enemies to use your infrastructure against you if you are on
    the defensive. You should build infrastructure in areas you feel are secure,
    but where you expect to need to support large numbers of divisions. Once
    captured enemy territory becomes secure, it would be good to improve
    the infrastructure there, too.
    The rate at which your units repair is also dependent partly upon
    the infrastructure in the province where it is. However, unlike previous
    games, the rate of resource production in a province can only be improved
    through technology.
    Be especially careful while using “forward airbases,” where the base
    s very close to the front lines, because these bases will draw upon the
    same supply throughput as the units at the front. You may find your air
    units and your land units are interfering with each others’ supply.

    ###
    Supply Mapmode (New & Revised!)
    The Supply Mapmode has gotten quite a bit more informative since the Manual was written, but some explanation is in order (a great deal of thanks
    to Mark Potter, aka Potski, for making this clear)…
    Lots of green = good, lots of red = bad. Each province has a supply demand and a supply throughput figure. If the demand is the same as the
    throughput then it is green (full supply). If the throughput is zero, then it is red (no supply). If there is some throughput, but less than the demand,
    then it is brown (partial supply). If there are supplies in a province, but no demand for them, then it is blue (spare supply). This happens most often
    when supplies have been stockpiled at an airbase, then suddenly are all left behind with no airwings requiring them when the wings are rebased.
    These slowly recover back into the system, they are not wasted.
    Superimposed on this for some provinces is red hatching. This shows where there is some limitation being imposed by the infra level. There is
    a complicated formula which I can’t remember off the top of my head which sets a maximum throughput for all provinces based on their infra level,
    which can be modified by certain techs and I think Ministers.
    For high infra provinces, such as those in East Prussia (Danzig is lvl 10), it is unusual to see the supplies passing through them being limited.
    But these may have to go “round the corner” in the Baltic Sea toward Leningrad, so the supply lines tend to all have to bunch up through a small
    number of provinces in this area.
    You may see an area in Russia/Ukraine where there is red hatching, where supplies are not getting through very well – this is the Pripyat
    Marshes. If you flick across in to infra mapmode you see this area clearly.
    ###

    Supply tax can be a serious drain on your Supply stockpile, so as your
    empire grows or as your armies move into enemy territory, your supply
    needs will gradually increase. It will get worse if rain or melting snow is
    causing mud along your routes. Supply is easier through provinces you
    own, (i.e. not in occupied territory).
    If you’re having systemic supply problems, like armies in Russian
    or Chinese territory often do, attacking only makes the problem worse,
    because it increases the draw on supplies. Resolve your supply issues
    first, and then attack. If there’s no way to effectively solve the issue, then
    attack sparingly or invest your attack strength into trying to open better
    supply routes.
    If you’re wandering around behind enemy lines, it’s possible to capture
    enemy supplies and make use of them yourself. You may collect those
    supplies moving through the province at that moment, or you may even
    be able to capture an enemy depot.
    It’s sometimes useful to take just a few days to prepare an army for
    a new offensive, because if you’ve just moved forward it’s going to take a
    couple of days for the supply lines to adjust and fully prepare you to move
    forward unless you are willing to do so without a fully established supply
    line. Your units may also need to refill their 30-day reserves, and this
    period does well to restore any strength or organisation they may have
    fallen behind on, too.

    Strategic Redeployment
    Land units using strategic redeployment will move at what’s essentially a
    speed of 20, modified by the infrastructure level. They will lose 1 point of
    organisation every day. Supply costs will be double.
    Theoretically, there is an infrastructure-based cap on strategic
    redeployment, because these units will still need supply (in fact, they will
    need more of it) to travel along their route. However, they will not need
    fuel, which may be a useful point.
    Consider using strategic redeployment to move your units if you’re
    short on fuel. Not only is it faster, but it also costs you supplies, rather
    than fuel. You can SR most places, including into combat, though that’s
    risky because you also lose organisation. You can come to just within
    range, though, and then move forward.
    SR reduces the organization of your units, so they will not be
    as prepared to fight. Because of this it’s a bad idea to use strategic
    redeployment to carry your units straight into combat. But there’s no rule
    against it, and at times it may seem a useful tactic to get your units into
    combat more quickly.

    Naval Bases & Supply
    The size of the naval base determines how much supply may be shipped
    in or out, so it may be you will need more than one naval base to supply
    certain areas.
    When you’re expanding onto other continents or across an island
    chain, it’s a good idea to produce a number of level 1 naval bases to place
    along your way. This will enable you to distribute supplies from more than
    one source, and the supplies can come from different directions, so the
    supply lines don’t all conflict with each other in a big traffic jam.


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  3. #3
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    I second this. It would be interesting to understand supply properly.
    East vs. West is cancelled. Will we ever get a cold war game?

  4. #4
    Oberkommando HOI4 Paradox Dev Team podcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chromos View Post
    Hi,
    as I'm currently did some testing of the supply system I have some questions. Hopefully the Devs could answer here.

    First the colour sheme used in the supply map mode, is it like this below?:
    (taken from the various manuals)

    - black/grey: No supply need, unknown territory
    - green: Indicates there is an active supply line where supplies are getting through and meeting demand or are even higher.
    - "brown/dark yellow": Is an area where there is demand which is not quite met.
    - yellow: Same like "brown" but is an even more serious shortage,
    - red: Indicates units which are totally out of supply.
    - blue: Indicates there is a surplus of supplies.(Flowback from not needed Supply)

    The tooltips that pop up if we hoover the coursor over a prov in the supply map mode show:
    - The Province name(Owner)
    - Supplied form where(How many nodes away from the supply depot)
    - Local Supply and Local Fuel
    - Required Daily Supply/Fuel
    - Received Supply/Fuel

    Red hatching occurs when/why? I read that it should show "infra bottlenecks".
    But when I check ingame situations the tooltips tell a different story?
    (For testing, I used the unmodded HOI3 FTM 3.05 version, cheksum UBBY. And the '43 secanrio with GER, all on auto.)
    So it looks to me, that it occurs more if the difference between required and received is "pretty high", but what is the rough formula behind?
    Also I see most yellow Provs not on the Estern Front, but in China. But also the difference in required and received is then not big, and "brown" has sometimes bigger differences.. So quite the opposite to the infos in the manuals..
    Sometimes the numbers of the Received Supply are red, sometimes "normal yellow", why? What is this indicating?
    To show that I really looked up all I know, I post below all infos I could gather about supply and how it should work.
    I put it into spoiler tags because it is much..

    It would be very kind if we get an clear answer on this updated for FTM:
    - The Colours, changing from what colour to another, when/why?
    - Red hatching, when/why?
    - Turning form yellow in red numbers(Local Supply/Received Supply), why/when


    Even that I can guess why some things are like they are, it would really nice to know the real/intended reason.

    Thanks in advance,
    Chromos
    Red hatching is when the amount of supplies needed to be drawn are higher than the throughput cap of that province.

    corrections to your stuff above:
    - "brown/dark yellow": pretty bad, not getting enough supplies through here
    - yellow: like brown, but infrastructure has also been damaged likely making it worse (but not necessarily)

    as for tooltips, "Received Supply" color is red if it is capped by maximum possible throughput, otherwise yellow
    Reject reason to make the impossible possible!

  5. #5
    ... even I understand the system and finished already 5 campaign games with different nations.

    THE SYSTEM HAS STILL TERRIBLE PROBLEMS, and AI only survives because it is cheating ...

    special at the end of the game, the system couldn't handle that lot of divisons, which are on the map.
    THE ONLY REASON, why I still could move my armies is because of 10 Transportplanes, which are flying SUPPLY missions the whole time, and even they have problems , when they are not stationed in the capital.

    I even build some sort of INFRA ROADS to my troops and perfect Army chains ... only supply army leaders are in charge of xxx and up HQ ...

    1.) PLEASE rework that system,
    2.) also stop that the AI is cheating (supplied stacks of 50 brigades in african desert, when I have problems to supply 5 brigades at a hex next to it on hills and a perfect line to my supplied habor (10) and HQ ... )
    3.) Let us build our OWN supply chains (depots with lorries and ships and airplanes ... like that HQ system is)

    ATM it is terrible for HUMAN players, even when we understand the full system, as I do !
    It isn't working, special late in the game (more than 1000 brigades ...)

    PS: PLEASE PARADOX make it possible to SUPPLY the country of ALLIES with petrol and supply ... MY UNITS ARE ALWAYS STARVING TO DEATH inside allied nations , even I have 99999 of everything ... also supply lines over an ally country ISN'T WORKING ... without AIRPLANES atm unplayable !

    PPS: If you want to have a chance to supply your troops late in the game, without cheating in some way , insert this

    Just edit in the defines.lua this below:
    - SUPPLYPOOL_DAYS = 80, -- days of supply.
    - STRAT_REDEP_SUPPLY_MOD = 0.25, -- how much Suppy is needed after arrival

    http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/...-to-see./page2
    Last edited by Von Thoma; 16-04-2012 at 16:47.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by podcat View Post
    Red hatching is when the amount of supplies needed to be drawn are higher than the throughput cap of that province.

    corrections to your stuff above:
    - "brown/dark yellow": pretty bad, not getting enough supplies through here
    - yellow: like brown, but infrastructure has also been damaged likely making it worse (but not necessarily)

    as for tooltips, "Received Supply" color is red if it is capped by maximum possible throughput, otherwise yellow
    Hi podcat and thank you for answering that part so quick!

    I get it now with the yellow colour being connected to the infra damaged. Forgot to check about that on the prov view.

    But I still get not, why sometimes the colour of the tooltip is red.
    I have sometimes red colour while only tranporting less then max possible throughput.
    Btw. what is the max amount in 10 lvl infra? I spotted so far ~3k+ supply and 400 fuel as max. Brandenburg next to Berlin is also able of 15k+ supply, but iirc the capital neighbouring provs have no cap, right?

    I had red colour with 80 or 2.4 k supply in a 10lvl infra prov.. While sometimes with the same amount all is fine..(No dmg to the prov, background colour also different, green or brown, but mostly with red hatching..)
    I could upload a save or show pictures that I took if that is wanted, but that is also easily reproduced imho.

    So I can also not confirm the info about the red hatching. As I had red hatching in prov with supply received/required way below the mentioned amount in lvl 10 infras.
    Sometimes already red hatching with required supply of some ~300..

    Please have another look at this an tell us what this is about.
    And please give us the max amount of throughput per infra lvl.



    Quote Originally Posted by Von Thoma View Post
    ... even I understand the system and finished already 5 campaign games with different nations.

    THE SYSTEM HAS STILL TERRIBLE PROBLEMS, and AI only survives because it is cheating ...
    Please let us gather first some more basic informations about how the system works.

    And honestly, atm I think the system is quite good designed.

    Like I oversaw to watch at the prov view for checking the yellow colour. The Devs could have overseen something too.
    And I also had no big issues with the supply system so far. That must be, because of my way of playing and the occupation laws I use. But thats maybe also why the Devs didn't noticed those things so far too. I noticed it recently as I saw some AAR having supply problems. Even next to the capital(3 nodes away, he had supply problems..) So I did some intense testings and find some "odd behaviours" myself. There seem to be some irritating functions in the supply system, and to find out why and where I started this thread.
    First I need clear info about what the system is telling me with the colours and indicators, next I'll bring up some things I noticed durig testing.
    Also the alraedy given Info form podact showed, that the old manuals wer lacking some info already..

    The modding info I gave you shows cleary, that the system can deliver even in the late state pretty good.
    So the question is, why not without this modding, why does it not try to deliver the needed supply anyway?
    Even more if it has plenty of supply that can go into the system towards the units.

    I'm really looking forward to find out. Maybe others have some info to spare too.
    And please stay polite and focused on fixing stuff.

    Cheers,
    Chromos
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    Field Marshal bbasgen's Avatar
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    I think our wiki page is fairly comprehensive in terms of Supply questions:
    http://www.paradoxian.org/hoi3wiki/Supply
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    Quote Originally Posted by bbasgen View Post
    I think our wiki page is fairly comprehensive in terms of Supply questions:
    http://www.paradoxian.org/hoi3wiki/Supply
    While it is indeed very good, it is still not complete or actual like all the other sources I quoted above in the spoilers.
    I did not put the wiki on the list for not being "official". But it has of course some additional infos the many .pdfs have not.

    So check out the prov colours alone..
    I really hope we could get an update on the whole system and find out if there're are "errors" in the system or the users like me just "to dumb" to use it correctly in all circumstances.

    Let's remember the "Defensiveness/Toughness bug" nobody really find out before someone, iirc it was Cybvep, did some deeper testing..

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  9. #9
    Covert Mastermind Demi Moderator Secret Master's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Von Thoma View Post
    THE SYSTEM HAS STILL TERRIBLE PROBLEMS
    I've never understood the anger some players have with HOI3's supply system. Even in vanilla, when it had some goofy bugs, I felt it worked well. Now it works very well.

    In all my years playing HOI3, I've never had a supply problem that resulted from either the AI cheating or the game mechanics not matching historical expectations. 99% of supply problems boil down to one of these easily solvable problems.

    1) You invaded an area with low infrastructure and now have too many units to supply.

    2) You were capturing supplies during an offensive, which masked supply problems, but now you aren't, meaning you have a supply problem.

    3) You were fighting over a province for a long time and its infrastructure went to zero.

    4) You had supply problems earlier that you ignored until entire divisions started going out of supply. By the time units are out of supply, things have gotten bad in your supply chain and fixing them will take time.

    5) You have units stationed in an allied country that has lousy infrastructure and lousy supply techs. Of course your units are going to be out of supply.

    6) You don't have enough port capacity to supply your needs.

    7) You keep running air and naval from ports and airfields in the area where you supply chain is weakest, hurting the ability of land units to get their fuel and supplies.

    8) You didn't research supply techs and port capacity techs.

    9) You didn't take the time to manually set convoys to ports that meet the requirements, even when an land invasion is in progress. Why take Leningrad if you aren't going to run a convoy to it to ease the supply burden on your infrastructure in Poland?

    10) You either have insufficient suppression on your supply arteries, or you have a stupidly repressive occupation law, or both.

    11) You logistically bombed some provinces, and then took them in an offensive.

    12) You let a human player in MP logistically bomb you.

    13) You didn't bother to build up infrastructure in critical locations before the war when you had the chance (Soviet players with logistical problems, I'm looking at you!).

    I will acknowledge that there are some things I would like to change. I would love placeable depots because sometimes the game places them in stupid places that hinder more than help you. I also would like to have more tools for prioritization of units and theaters for supplies and fuel. And to be perfectly honest, I think that some units really need to consume more fuel anyway. (That's a different rant, though.)

    It's not perfect, but to act like the game's supply mechanics are broken is ridiculous. They operate according to some fairly rational rules that can be planned for and dealt with.
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  10. #10
    Field Marshal bbasgen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Secret Master View Post
    I've never understood the anger some players have with HOI3's supply system. Even in vanilla, when it had some goofy bugs, I felt it worked well. Now it works very well.
    I agree with you generally, particularly with how upset people get. My one issue is with having no control on the overseas supply depots. In my current Japan game, my depot started in Qingdao, then moved to Shanghai, then to Rangoon (!), and now it is at Haikou. I have a land connection through what was formerly Yunnan to India, so the location of this depot matters quite a bit. I'm quite worried about my Soviet invasion being fueled from the South China Sea!
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  11. #11
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    @ Secret Master: I agree completely, but some people don't want to hear this. For example: if you explain that the red hatching that shows up 3-provinces away from Berlin during Barbarossa is not a bug or flaw, but is WAD and perfectly understandable, it still keeps popping up as an example of why the supply system sucks. Along with what Chromos has suggested, we need the Devs to make a list of all the major misunderstandings they have witnessed on this topic, clearly and concisely explain why these things are not correct, and sticky the thing to the very top of the forum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bbasgen View Post
    I agree with you generally, particularly with how upset people get. My one issue is with having no control on the overseas supply depots. In my current Japan game, my depot started in Qingdao, then moved to Shanghai, then to Rangoon (!), and now it is at Haikou. I have a land connection through what was formerly Yunnan to India, so the location of this depot matters quite a bit. I'm quite worried about my Soviet invasion being fueled from the South China Sea!
    There seems to be some hope on this issue. If you load the CMP and look at the Asia Theatre, you will see that the infra has been reduced to one between Nat Chi and IndoChina. The furthest your supply depot will move is Shanghai. I know this as I always went into my save game and made that change to prevent the problem you describe (and, yes, it was quite aggravating).
    Last edited by Secret Master; 16-04-2012 at 21:32. Reason: mistake on my part

  13. #13
    Covert Mastermind Demi Moderator Secret Master's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bbasgen View Post
    I agree with you generally, particularly with how upset people get. My one issue is with having no control on the overseas supply depots. In my current Japan game, my depot started in Qingdao, then moved to Shanghai, then to Rangoon (!), and now it is at Haikou. I have a land connection through what was formerly Yunnan to India, so the location of this depot matters quite a bit. I'm quite worried about my Soviet invasion being fueled from the South China Sea!
    I agree. That's why I said I would still like placeable depots. You aren't the only one with this issue, to be sure.

    EDIT: And, to be honest, things like the red cross-hatching outside of Berlin demonstrate that, in fact, the supply system is working. Even infra 10 provinces can only move so much fuel and supply at whatever your current techs are. Trust me, I can overload a supply system composed of entirely infra 10 provinces without using a navy.

    And then there's the "I want trucks to move supplies" problem. People forget that the supply tax exists. It costs supplies to move supplies. There's your trucks and horse-drawn carts. (Well, that and the strategic resource.)
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  14. #14
    Colonel Calders's Avatar
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    Personally I think supply is far too difficult to deal with and I also don't think it is at all realistic. I have particularly had problems playing as Germany after taking Moscow. The Germans managed to get a reasonable sized army to Stalingrad which I find virtually impossible. And yes I have put huge effort into building high level infrastructure lines to my fronts but its hasn't helped that much. Also the amount of effort this takes to do simply isn't fun. Some of the solutions to this problem that I have heard on here just prove to me that the system doesn't work.

    "You need to make sure you destroy most of the Soviet Army in Poland" - I shouldn't have to do this
    "Don't have any of your air-force East of Berlin" - Really!!!
    "Use less troops, send some home" - Ahhh because that is what Germany needed, less troops in Russia, if only they had known
    "Don't get your allies to help" - yes who wants help

    Basically I think there are the following problems with the system as it is:
    • Being low on supply should really be about delaying you (as supply lines catch up) not stopping you from fighting, so low supply should slow your speed and increase the delay between attacks.
    • You should only ever be completely out of supply when you are cut off. Its simply not realistic that troops with a clear line of supply (even over difficult terrain) can end up suffering the same penalties as surrounded troops
    • You should be able to attack even when out of supply (didn't even starving troops sometimes try to break out).
    • You should not suffer such a large penalty to fighting capabilities unless you are actually cut off.
    • You should be able to build railways (i.e. simple single level building that allow a large flow of supplies)


    To be honest I found it so frustrating that I was about to stop playing the game and then I thought I would give Arcade mode a go, and the game become so much better. This is a shame because I think supply planning should be part of a War Game, I just don't think it should become "HOI3 the World War 2 supply simulator"
    Last edited by Calders; 16-04-2012 at 22:54.

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    AHOI-Mod Series Developer Demi Moderator Chromos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Calders View Post
    Personally I think supply is far too difficult to deal with and I also don't think its at all realistic. I have particularly had problems playing as Germany after I get past Moscow. The Germans managed to get a reasonable sized army to Stalingrad which I find virtually impossible. I have tried building infrastructure lines to my fronts but its hasn't helped as much as I thought and the amount of effort this takes simply isn't fun. Some of the solutions I have heard on here just prove to me that the system doesn't work.

    "You need to make sure you destroy most of the Soviet Army in Poland" - I shouldn't have to do this
    "Don't have any of your air-force East of Berlin" - Really!!!
    "Use less troops, send some home" - Ahhh because that is what Germany needed, less troops in Russia, if only they had known
    "Don't get your allies to help" - yes who wants help

    Basically I think there are the following problems with the system as it is:
    • Being low on supply should really be about delaying you (as supply lines catch up) not stopping you from fighting, so low supply should slow your speed and increase the delay between attacks.
    • You should only ever be completely out of supply when you are cut off. Its simply not realistic that troops with a clear line of supply (even over difficult terrain) can end up suffering the same penalties as surrounded troops
    • You should be able to attack even when out of supply (didn't even starving troops sometimes try to break out).
    • You should not suffer such a large penalty to fighting capabilities unless you are actually cut off.
    • You should be able to build railways (i.e. simple single level building that allow a large flow of supplies)


    To be honest I found it so frustrating that I was about to stop playing the game and then I thought I would give Arcade mode a go, and the game become so much better. This is a shame because I think supply planning should be part of a War Game, I just don't think it should become "HOI3 the World War 2 supply simulator"
    Take a look at the end of post 5 above. Then you don't need arcade mode..
    But I would like to spare the discussion of possible existing "quirks" after we ironed out the basic info the supply system gives us.
    I think anybody could reproduce the behaviour I posted above with the red hatchings?.. So there seems not all allright to me..

    I like to repeat, I never had some big issues with the supply system myself, just noticed some odd things in an aar I read and did some testing and gathering info about the system wich did then not match what I experienced ingame.
    Now I first would like clarification about the system, and nothing else.

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  16. #16
    Covert Mastermind Demi Moderator Secret Master's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Calders View Post
    "You need to make sure you destroy most of the Soviet Army in Poland" - I shouldn't have to do this
    I wouldn't tell you to do that. Although the only reason that helps if because it reduces the need to send as many troops deeper into Russia.

    "Don't have any of your air-force East of Berlin" - Really!!!
    You gotta budget your supply capability. Planes are thirsty. Besides, most German players are able to build a lot more wings than their historical counterparts, meaning you have more planes to work with than the historical people fighting the campaign.

    Do you really think that the historical German military could have just added 20% more planes to their forces fighting in the East without it causing further logistical problems?

    "Use less troops, send some home" - Ahhh because that is what Germany needed, less troops in Russia, if only they had known
    Again, most human players either end up with a bigger army invading the Soviets than their historical counterparts. Not to mention it often contains units that use more supply and fuel than their historical counterparts (think about how much ARTY the average human player drags into Barbarossa.)

    Do you really think that the historical German army could have just added 20% more units with a 30% increase in supply and fuel draw to the Eastern Front without paying the consequences? Especially at times of the year when weather was terrible?

    "Don't get your allies to help" - yes who wants help
    Your allies should probably be encouraged to give you expeditionary forces when possible, and then you can stick their crappy units on garrison duty to free up your better units.

    Basically I think there are the following problems with the system as it is:
    [LIST][*]Being low on supply should really be about delaying you (as supply lines catch up) not stopping you from fighting, so low supply should slow your speed and increase the delay between attacks.
    The game already models that. You have to slow your operational tempo down if your supplies haven't caught up to you.


    [*]You should only ever be completely out of supply when you are cut off. Its simply not realistic that troops with a clear line of supply (even over difficult terrain) can end up suffering the same penalties as surrounded troops
    Really? Never out of supply unless completely cut off? What about cut off units that are sitting on 30 days of supplies? What about countries that are simply out of supplies and fuel at the national level? What about units that are not cut off, but the infrastructure behind them has been destroyed? What about units fighting in provinces with destroyed infrastructure? What about units that have advanced beyond their supplies and have not captured any supplies? Should they just get free supplies because they happened to outrun the trucks that have their fuel and bullets?

    [*]You should be able to attack even when out of supply (didn't even starving troops sometimes try to break out).
    If a unit is completely out of supply, it isn't just starving. It has no ammunition, no fuel for vehicles, no food, no explosives, no uniforms except what they are wearing, nothing. Not a thing. Unless there is a "Attack with harsh language" modifier for such units, I'm not sure what you expect them to be able to realistically accomplish on the offensive. Are they going to charge blindly into enemy machine guns and tell jokes to the enemy gun crews like in the famous Monty Python skit? Try to get all stabby on a T-34 with their bayonets? Maybe hold a singalong with around the campfire with enemy artillery crews to lull them into a false sense of security?

    The fact that the game does not remove them automatically from gameplay is fairly generous and represents cutoff units trying to hold out until being rescued.

    [*]You should not suffer such a large penalty to fighting capabilities unless you are actually cut off.
    Out of ammunition is out of ammunition. A Sherman tank can't shoot a at the Germans if it has no ammunition for its main armament or machineguns. It doesn't matter if the division is cut off. it doesn't matter if it has a route to a depot, but the depot didn't actually send them any supplies for the past month. It doesn't even matter if the magic supply unicorn came and took away all the supplies in the night. What matters is only whether or not the unit has supplies to fight right now. If it has absolutely nothing, then it should be penalized accordingly.

    [*]You should be able to build railways (i.e. simple single level building that allow a large flow of supplies)
    You can. Building infrastructure in occupied territories is already possible. That represents railroads, roads, and communication infrastructure. Hell, damaged infrastructure can repair at a reasonable rate of speed FOR FREE. Basically, if you don't upgrade infrastructure at critical junctures it's your own fault.

    To be honest I found it so frustrating that I was about to stop playing the game and then I thought I would give Arcade mode a go, and the game become so much better. This is a shame because I think supply planning should be part of a War Game, I just don't think it should become "HOI3 the World War 2 supply simulator"
    I don't spend a lot of time worry about logistics. I sometimes have to troubleshoot, but by and large I spend most of my time bombing the enemy and seizing objectives. But, the arcade mode is there for people who just don't want to fool with it.
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  17. #17
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    Chromos - Thanks for pointing that out I will give that a go and apologies I didn't mean to take your Thread off its subject.

    Secret Master - Very amusing reply I think we will have to agree to disagree on some of those points.. If being "out of Supply" means I don't have anything at all then it should be a lot harder to achieve than it is (and the troops should simply surrender immediately... by that definition it is the game that is representing troops "defending with harsh language"). I agree with the points about unrealistic quantities of certain units, but this is the way the game is set up so shouldn't the supply system be able to deal with this.

  18. #18
    I think the main problem is that it's hard to evaluate how many troops (total) can you supply via certain routes and what exactly they need (for example, how much supplies and fuel needs 3x1 inf. + 1x1 arty. in comparison to 2x1 l. tank + 2x1 inf.) to operate. As it is now you simply guess how many brigades (4x1 or 2x1 strong) you can throw in by judging the infrastructure and ports and throwing in forces part by part and see the overall outcome, but it is still more guesswork that it should be.

    I wonder if all supply should come directly from the capital. Why not from factories? Why can't I mark specific regions as temporary supply storages? I doubt that troops receive they supply from a guy who drove his truck all the way from Berlin to Smolensk. This would make the game more interesting as protecting or capturing such vital storage point would be a heavy blow to the enemy and great benefit to the fast units in your army.

  19. #19
    Covert Mastermind Demi Moderator Secret Master's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Calders View Post
    If being "out of Supply" means I don't have anything at all then it should be a lot harder to achieve than it is (and the troops should simply surrender immediately... by that definition it is the game that is representing troops "defending with harsh language").
    Aha, so it seems that you are of the opinion that units which are completely out of supply should just be eliminated ala the old Avalon Hill games. I get it, now.

    I think I agree with Holy.Death that one of the problems with the interface is that estimating what you can support is kind of difficult. But Holy.Death makes a small error. Supplies also come from and IC sitting on a core province. That was a change way back (SF?). There are limitations as to how much supply can run through a province with IC, but it's nice to have.
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    Field Marshal bbasgen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Reeps View Post
    There seems to be some hope on this issue. If you load the CMP and look at the Asia Theatre, you will see that the infra has been reduced to one between Nat Chi and IndoChina. The furthest your supply depot will move is Shanghai. I know this as I always went into my save game and made that change to prevent the problem you describe (and, yes, it was quite aggravating).
    Can you explain this a bit more? What is CMP? What exactly do I need to do to move the depot?

    P.S. I hope everyone realizes that the FIRST dev diary PI does for HoI 4 will be about supply.
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