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Thread: Paradox need to STOP and THINK about the future and how things will be done better?

  1. #1
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    Paradox need to STOP and THINK about the future and how things will be done better?

    I'm on my soapbox, so forgive me:

    I bought HOI3, it must be 3 years ago (August 2009). It was my first Paradox game. I tried to play it, but found it way too complicated and put it aside. A year later I picked it up again and determined to play it. It was a mess, I complained on the forum and was told to go buy Semper Fi, which had just been released, and it would solve all my problems. I bought Semper Fi, had a blast, enjoyed it and eventually went on to buy and play lots of other Paradox games. But the original "bad" experience with Paradox remained with me, associated with HOI3.

    Go forward to now. In the interim I've bought FTM and all the sprite packs, my intention to get back and play HOI3 again, sometime, when I have "time". I see HOI3 Collection on sale...GREAT! This will save me all the time, trouble and effort of having to reinstall HOI3-patch it... Semper Fi-patch it... FTM-patch it and all the sprite packs. I bought HOI3 Collection.

    It said it contained Semper Fi and FTM and all the sprite packs. On installation I DID expect to see, on the menu, a choice for Semper Fi or FTM and the various scenarios of HOI3. No there. Oh! so it must be that they are there "under the hood" grand! It all installed fine, no problems.

    I then wanted to install those "extras", "dlc's ?". So I installed Gottdamnerung(?), and half way through installing either Dies Irae USA or Common Weapons of whatever, I noticed with alarm, that the game was asking me to overwrite the previous "dlc", so I stopped and went to the forum to check things out...

    EDIT: What Paradox don't seem to realise is this: If I (as a customer) have to search through forums to find "fixes" and patches for games...it is like "a bad thing" to have to do... I can feel my desire to play the game diminish as the minutes tick by... Paradox need to realise THIS!

    .................................................. ............
    In the meantime, we've ALL had a LIFT with the high-quality QA and launch effort with Crusader Kings II, and for me it was a case of :"Great! these guys are finally getting their act together". CKII is a great success, and all Paradoxians are delighted, including me!

    .................................................. ................

    I went back on the HOI3 forum, looking for information about HOI3 Collection. There wasn't any.
    No sticky, nothing. It was as if the game didn't exist?
    BUT for me, because of my previous HOI3 experience (bad!), it was like a dejavu moment.. "Ah XXXX! here we go again... my heart sank... I just couldn't believe that it was the same... DESPITE THE MASSIVE EFFORTS of very good and excellent Moderators, so I posted a request for information.

    A moderator came back to me and a friendly gamer also helped me. Good, Thanks.

    .................................................. ..................

    So I thought, why is it still like this, after all this time...?
    I looked at the Forum, and thought, you know it could very well be, that despite everyone's extreme efforts and professionalism, the Forum is just too big. If these guys still have to cope with old games, their patches, their whatever, AND still be expected to cope with the current games.. including HOI3, which is really 3 games.. this is ridiculous... AS .. I'm a customer, and I'm pissed off (again).

    Hence this post.

    I think the Forum is way too big. I think the old classic games should be either dumped, or put off on some other forum, so the main effort can be concentrated on the Current and upcoming games. If people have less to deal with, then I'm sure they can do a better job. And idiots like me, can be better served, with "stuff" clearer and easier to process.

    My point about making stuff clearer:
    I bought HOI3 Collection, it contains Semper Fi and FTM.. so I thought, I'll be able to install the "dlc's" and whaterver extras there are also. NO! One installation messes up the previous and you end up being pissed off and having to reinstall. That's IF you do reinstall...

    So another point: Paradox should be making it crystal clear what works with what. And as far as HOI3 Collection goes, it should clearly state this, as this is a new game version. It doesn't.

    My point being, that if Paradox can do it for CKII, then they should be gearing up to do it for ALL future games. Hence the comment about a QA guy or department, or better QA.

    So, overall I've complimented the Moderators, as I DO see the efforts they make on all our behalf's. THANKS. But I also make the point that things can be better, and need to be. EDIT: And as someone else has reminded me, elsewhere: Forums are meant for communication between people about a common subject (games). They aren't suited for storing games, patches, whatever. The Hoi3 forum contains DEAD, stickied mods, yet there isn't room for information about a new game...

    Anyway, I've said my piece. I'm done.


    So, Agree/Disagree?
    Last edited by novapaddy; 17-04-2012 at 12:07.

  2. #2
    Mwahahahahaha s1234567890m's Avatar
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    Disagree.

    ... what I was buying
    ... what patches I'd have to install, if any
    ... what dlc's, sold with the paradox label, went with the game, AND how to install. I'M NOT picking on HOI3, this is just an example!
    sounds like you need steam.

    I think it's time Paradox either dumped the old games and concentrated on the current / upcoming... OR

    set up a completely separate forum where the older classic games were kept, and dealt with there.
    They have dumped them, we call it the classic section

    I take it this rant is from trying to play games from your icon collection
    Ignored: Nuril, videonfan, Pandi

  3. #3
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    Maybe having a forum for "other games" which is beyond "classic games" where the games dont have an individual forum but a one big forum which still provides tech support and mods if there are any to the individual games. This is where completely dead games like EU1 or Crown of The North for example can go and die

    At least, that would be what I would suggest.
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  4. #4
    sorry, but what exactly is your point?

    taking hoi3 as example:

    Problem for me was that the information wasn't crystal clear as to :
    ... what I was buying
    ... what patches I'd have to install, if any
    ... what dlc's, sold with the paradox label, went with the game, AND how to install. I'M NOT picking on HOI3, this is just an example!
    i don't know where you bought the collection but steam and gamersgate do list what is included in the collection. i expect all other distributors do the same. not really a problem of the forum though. some distributors might handle the collection different then others. usually one would expect you inform yourself on what you are buying before and where you are buying it.
    gamersgate for example clearly lists it:

    includes:

    Code:
    Hearts of Iron III
        Hearts of Iron III German Spritepack
        Hearts of Iron III US Spritepack
        Hearts of Iron III Soviet Spritepack
        Hearts of Iron III German Infantry Spritepack
        Hearts of Iron III Japanese Infantry Spritepack
        Hearts of Iron III Soviet Infantry Spritepack
        Hearts of Iron III Soviet Music Spritepack
        Hearts of Iron III German II Spritepack
        Hearts of Iron III Semper Fi
        Hearts of Iron III For The Motherland
        Hearts of Iron III MegaGerman Spritepack
    the launcher will always show you the latest official patch for the main game. so it shouldn't be hard to find. however, the latest patch can also be found in a sticky thread (in tech support when a beta patch). so it is not really a problem. or is "Sticky: HoI III: For the Motherland 3.05 patch" not clear enough? finding the right patch for your version isn't really a problem when you look at the version number. 1.XX = hoi3, 2.XX = sf and 3.XX = ftm.
    all DLC is listed among the contend the collection provides and they are all installed automatically. granted, as far as hoi3 is concerned the patch situation for the dies irea DLCs is problematic at the moment since the patches are still sort of beta patches but once more you can find them by looking at the sticky threads: "Sticky: [MEGATHREAD] The DLC thread list [Dies Irae][Weapons of WWII]".

    all you ask for is already available very easily and it is up front...
    Last edited by comsubpac; 15-04-2012 at 18:00.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by novapaddy View Post
    ...
    Look at the size of the forum!
    Upcoming games... Current games... Classic games... whatever. Just LOOK at the amount of games there is there!

    How on earth are customers of Paradox going to receive the excellent service they have received in the past (and current), from Moderators, etc; as customers search for information on games:...

    I think the forum is becoming too big to manage.

    Agree? / Disagree?
    As the Forum Manger, I would have to say that it is not too big to manage, in fact We are looking at and planing for exponential growth in the near future.
    I would agree that our forum staff of Moderators and Demi Mods do an excellent job and I am thankful for them on a daily basis.

    Most of the issues you have I do not think are related to the forum size, The classic games are in their own section that you do not need to look at if not interested.
    Which is one of the reasons the forums are organized like that.

    It could be that perhaps we can have a sticky thread in each forum that details each DLC for the game and the order of release.
    We are always interested to hear how we can make the forum experience better and more interesting.
    We also have just hired a Community Manager who will be focused on these types of issues like improving the real world experience of using our games and interacting with us.

    Never fear we are planning for the future and the growth of the forum, but as always we value input and ideas from our members.
    I have been dealt a good hand in life, now I am just looking for a few more cards!

  6. #6
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    Not much of a debate going on here? Disappointing.

    I think this post has been received as a "gripe", which I suppose it is, but it was intended to spark a debate...

    My impression of how Paradox do stuff, is mostly, to muddle through and we'll sort it out afterwards. I can see the necessity of urgency as the company needs to be publishing games and making money to pay staff etc etc.

    My intention was to make a main point:

    That Paradox needs to be sorting stuff "up-front", to possibly have a QA, with protocols that get followed; then when games are launched, all the forum stuff pertaining to the game, is in place already or on-the-day-of-launch. Then, customers are happy, because stuff is already sorted, already there and they can find what they need. But then again, they shouldn't need to be searching forums. This is my whole point. Paradox moderators are happy, as they are likely to be less stressed, and not always chasing to catch up.

    DLC's don't get published until they actually work, and QA sorts how that dlc behaves in relation to this other dlc. I mean one doesn't mess up the other.

    So overall, Paradox STOPS and THINKS! Consider how better things "for everyone" would be better, if stuff was done before-hand, and not afterwards... Cheers

  7. #7
    Mwahahahahaha s1234567890m's Avatar
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    It sounds like your main point is to delete the history from paradox forums?
    I get a laugh readding the threads from CK when pdox took over it, and the HOI3 launch.

    also please dont jsut edit the OP, its a wall of text with a few windows

    But then again, they shouldn't need to be searching forums.
    To this point no one reads stickies, and is just added scrolling for the rest of us

    Not much of a debate going on here? Disappointing.
    You have waffled and um'ed and ar'ed im still not sure what your point is that is probaably why you havent created a 'discussion'
    Ignored: Nuril, videonfan, Pandi

  8. #8
    since the information you want already is up front (or simply not necessary) a discussion is not really necessary. s123456789m is right though: apparently nobody reads the sticky threads (did you?).
    you can always ask and you will get the answer within 5 minutes. maybe that is faster then redesigning the forum would be anyway.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by comsubpac View Post
    since the information you want already is up front (or simply not necessary) a discussion is not really necessary. s123456789m is right though: apparently nobody reads the sticky threads (did you?).
    you can always ask and you will get the answer within 5 minutes. maybe that is faster then redesigning the forum would be anyway.
    Really? Maybe I'm blind, but I just cannot see any information "up front" about HOI3 Collections..??





    But, really if making comments about Paradox on the Paradox Discussion forum isn't acceptable, then maybe Paradox should just close down the "Discussion" thread. I'm not being personal or making trouble. I'm actually trying to improve things. That's all I'm doing here.

  10. #10
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    From what I've seen, collections, golds, etc don't get their own section. They are a bundle and not supported as a separate product. If I'm reading your complaint properly.

  11. #11
    yes, thats why i said that the necessary informations are available. what the collections consist of is up to the distributors anyway (they can be different, can't they?). you can hardly miss the information when you try to buy them, as i posted earlier.
    btw, as you posted yourself with the screens: you can find the patches, the DLC and everything else already "up front". i am almost certain that you can even find all the information necessary about the collections in the usual "where to buy" thread.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by comsubpac View Post
    yes, thats why i said that the necessary informations are available. what the collections consist of is up to the distributors anyway (they can be different, can't they?). you can hardly miss the information when you try to buy them, as i posted earlier.
    comsubpac: Why do you take things SO personally?

  13. #13
    am i the one who takes things personally? it is a discussion and to be fair most of the points you made are simply not accurate. sorry, if you don't want answers why are you starting a discussion?
    the only "information" not directly available up front is the exact composition of the collections but that kind of information doesn't really matter. your distributor tells you what you are buying and it is not really different from buying everything separate.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by comsubpac View Post
    am i the one who takes things personally? it is a discussion and to be fair most of the points you made are simply not accurate. sorry, if you don't want answers why are you starting a discussion?
    the only "information" not directly available up front is the exact composition of the collections but that kind of information doesn't really matter. your distributor tells you what you are buying and it is not really different from buying everything separate.
    This is taken directly from gamersgate: WHERE is the information you speak of?
    You say it is up to the distributors? So GG made up the Collection? Paradox didn't? So all of a sudden Paradox deny any responsibility for HOI3 Collections?



    No go back and look at the HOI3 forum page above. WHERE is the information on Collections? I don't see any...

    So, as someone who hasn't played HOI3 for at least a year, and isn't familiar with whatever patch or "dlc" is available... I can only take it, that my latest "game" here is FTM? Would that be a natural choice to make?

    So for the additions I spoke of in my post, I go to the Megathread and download the 3 patches for the 3 "dlc's", and it messes up my Collection installation.

    Certainly when I asked for information on the forum. You comsubpac, were there very quickly to answer me. I also thanked you gratefully.

    Are you saying all of THIS is MY fault?

    EDIT: I'm not blaming any Moderator. I'm only saying that things could and should be better.
    Now, I think I have finally made my point. I'm done. There's a football match on the tv, Have a Nice Evening.

  15. #15
    it is right under "includes"... and you can find everything available by searching hearts of iron on gamersgate or steam or wherever. the launcher/steam will patch the game for you (usually it is already patched though).
    patches and informations you need to know on DLCs can still be found in the sticky threads right up front.
    it is not your fault it simply already there. the patches do work. whatever you did try again but is explained already. it is basically copying a few files but i am sure the forum will help you further. changing the forum wouldn't change that.

  16. #16
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    Smile

    People do have different "perceptions".

    If you buy a product wich is called a "Collection" you would guess you could play all the content.
    In regard of the HOI3 collection, you can.

    But you can't play some of the extra content from some DLC's because it is not patched up officially for FTM.. That is no problem of the Collection, as is the same with "normal FTM"..
    You check the forums and try to install a beta patch, mess it up eventually, get told that is a beta and not a finall patch etc..

    So lots of possibilities to get a unsatisfied consumer..
    Furthermore as we had also in the past "wrong/misleading" advertising in regard to supported languages etc..

    And it would(?) maybe good to have more communication, that you can't play some DLC's with the Collection atm with an offical(!) patch..

    That is all just about communication.. Tricky as ever..

    But:
    All this problems should be gone with the next patch & expansion policy wich started with CK2, it should be a problem of the past.
    Nonetheless, it is worth mentioning it. And kept in mind for the game that use the "old way".

    In the end, we don't have this problem because of the Collection, but because the way the "DLC-compatibility" patches keeps up with the offical patches for the main game.
    And thus problems led very likely to the new patch & expansion policiy and the new features of the engine to get along with that.
    So QA and the Devs stopped, thought and worked already..

    It is also a fact, that despite there is a "how to apply a patch tutorial", even witch pictures, some users can't use the patches and need "installers/STEAM like features".
    Look at the nice description Devildread did: Dies-Irae-Götterdämmerung-Report-thread - just scroll down a bit
    A teacher told me once about a "common computer error", "Error code 40": The error sits 40cm in front of the computer..
    The first programm of mine(schedule prg) was tested like this:
    The teacher hammered on the keyboard until there was only a sound beep of the PC and the prg crashed due to an character overflow error.. With a smile onhis face he said:"You should check the keyboard buffer, you could never estimate about a normal user. Ask again after you did this.."
    This is nothing about users being "dumb", just about the gazillions of different bahaviour humans can come up with.. An endless list of possibilities of doing things different..
    As we have not endless time, we find prg/descriptions like the time "allowed"..

    So it is mabye usefull to point out for wich state of the game the DLC was made and that it should payed attention if it is already patched for the upmost actual latest Expansion etc..
    A little extra line of text in the FAQ-section?
    But again, that is a "ghost of the past"(hopefully) with the, you know it, the new patch & expansion policy..


    @Castellon
    The stickies could be mabye merged under the "FAQ"-Subforum?
    To have not that much stickies on the main page?
    In the main forum then only a notice to get access to all that info after registering the game.
    And, of course, point to the offical helpdesk for those who don't want to register..


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  17. #17
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    Thought I'd just chime in here and confirm that Paradox actually spends quite a considerable amount of time looking at how we can improve and be better, in all areas from quality control, to communication, to gameplay content, to being accessible with our games worldwide etc. Sometimes we choose options that might not make sense to the end consumer because we have a different "bigger picture" of all areas of our business, sometimes there are certain limitations due to technology or recourses alt. we need to prioritize the most pressing issues, and sometimes we might just make mistakes and correcting them might be visible straight away or not visible until a process has been in place for a longer time. The point is we absolutely think about things, improve things, and we count on you guys to also make your voice heard about what works for you and what doesn't.

    Kind regards
    Susana

  18. #18
    General jmschaub's Avatar
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    I think he has a valid point about the DLC. If Paradox puts their stamp of approval on it, it should come with automatic patch detection. Just like the main game has already. But this should be limited to official DLCs only. It is quite cumbersome to keep checking the forums for potential updates for these. I know they don't cost alot of money but perhaps if they want their DLC included they have to bring a means to auto-detect patches for them. I'm pretty sure the only current way to get an update is by going to the forums. (Correct me if I'm wrong). But the sites that sell them don't even have a link to patch them.

    I can navigate around pretty easily, but I can see his point from the perspective of a new customer. So hopefully CK2 will bring auto patching to the DLCs that it produces.

  19. #19
    The problem is that no official patch exists yet. once it is it will be come over the launcher/steam.

  20. #20
    Studio Manager Paradox Dev Team Johan's Avatar
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    Why do you think we are using Steam ?

    Johan Andersson
    Studio Manager at Paradox Development Studio AB - Follow me at Twitter!

    "A patch is never late! Nor is it ever early. It arrives precisely when I mean it to do!"

    For our Patching and Expansion Policy, read here...

    Read here why EU4 requires steam!

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