Guys how long did this scenario take you?
I need to have a rough estimate to arrange my game time.
Guys how long did this scenario take you?
I need to have a rough estimate to arrange my game time.
Can't beat it. Total trying time close to 10-15 hours, may be? With a couple of "almost got it" games.
It has a JRPG boss fight feel, where you need to do exactly what Devs thought up as the right way to deal with it (even if it defies common sense). It is a lazy way to up the difficulty in a strategy, especially in this Naval Sim Strategy niche.
Check the upcoming "Command", that one is a true Harpoon successor. Although the learning curve is steep.
Bl@ckVoid, we did not set up a "right" strategy that works for this scenario. It is just hard, period. I personally beat it by micromanaging fighters against missiles in the north until my carrier fighters could reinforce.
The most efficient way, apparently, is to divert attention from the northern force, and that tactic was invented by forum members.
Yeah, this is a tough one.
The issue I have with this scenario, and some of the others (though none so much as this) is that while the forces arrayed against you are immense, you're put in a terrible tactical situation from the outset. Indeed, this seems to be where a lot of the difficulty in some of these scenarios comes from. Not from beating off the actual attack, but from scrambling to establish a defense because there is no reconnaissance or picture, no CAP, no ASW patrol, and no pickets to start with. At the start of this scenario, the primary task seems to be "race like mad to put aircraft up and get some blocking units in place."
I think I can guess as to the issue the developers faced (and feel free to correct me here Jan) is that the tactics espoused in modern naval warfare advocate caution and careful planning. However, this means that it would be rather difficult for the AI to really spring a surprise on the player without resorting to some sort of feint or deception. If the AI is geared to simply launch an overwhelming, massive assault, then providing this level of challenge is difficult as a human player, following doctrine, should be able to detect the incoming attack well in advance. (Repulsing it, is another matter.)
So in order to provide that challenge, and allow for attacks to come in and threaten your high value targets without warning, they've been placed in the open, or in a compromising situation. This is none better illustrated than in this scenario. There's a number of grave mistakes that the "player" finds themselves racing to correct at the start of this scenario. The one I'm assuming most (myself included) are struggling to deal with is that your high-value amphib starts off parked right next to a base home to an entire regiment of Backfires with only three measly F-35s providing topcover and no AWACS. How many here were wondering how it was with 50+ Tomahawks in the fleet (see those two subs parked up north with all of their TLAMs? What the heck are they doing there?) that those bases weren't eliminated?
Frankly, any realistic situation where the amphibs were that close to the coast would only come once any any all opposition that could threaten the ships was destroyed (this is reflected in current U.S. Navy doctrine, only long-range cruise missiles and air attacks have replaced the traditional use of naval gunfire for this role.)
I'd argue that the "Ragnarok" scenario should have actually come one mission prior. With Iceland neutralized, the combined task force approaches the Norwegian coast. It's at that point, as the force nears, that the fleet is probing forth and looking for ways to sneak in its attack assets to eliminate the air bases that will enable it to land its ground forces safely. At the same time, the Russians are massing their bombers to launch an all-out assault on the carrier groups. Here's what I'd do:
- The NATO player begins with both carriers, both amphibs, their container ships, and escorts, in a dispered arrangement, with the heavies towards the center. Currently the game's ship groups pack them close together, but I'd spread them apart.
- Type 45s, Arleigh Burkes, and Ticos far towards the outside to intercept inbound missiles and act as early warning. I'd place them 100-150mi in circle facing towards the east.
- I'd have a pair of Type 42s or Halifax frigates close to the carriers for ASW, and maybe a single Tico. (Current doctrine is to keep one of these within 4000m of the carrier at all times. But I wouldn't put more than one.)
- I'd keep the Scotland airfield, but maybe eliminate the English one. Since we don't have units down there, we can assume the airfield is tied up with other duties.
- The two Virginia-class subs. Optional. But if they're there, I'd place them ahead of the pickets, but without their Tomahawks. Let's assume they used them up last mission to eliminate Keflavik. I'd remove the Tomahawks on the VLS-equipped ships as well, or keep them to a minimum.
- Have basic top cover deployed and one or two Hawkeyes or a Hawkeye and a Sentry.
- The Russians start with their carrier group to the north, or maybe south if we're being sneaky. It's up to the player to find it.
- The two Norwegian bases are there, complete with their full Backfire Regiments, and maybe a Blackjack or two if they're feeling like throwing it all in. I'd also consider adding a third base to the east (the one on the Kola), more on this in a moment.
- Subs. I'd have a number of SSNs, and I'd scatter these as needed. Maybe 2-3? More?
This is how I see this playing out:
- The NATO player's goal is to eliminate the two Norwegian air bases and clear the way for the invasion. Because the Tomahawks were largely spent earlier, and land-based bombers are limited, this will largely have to be accomplished with strike-craft from the carriers themselves.
- Because the Russians are going to be launching their own all-out attack, air assets are going to have to be carefully managed between escorting the strike package (once they're in range) and intercepting incoming bombers/missiles.
- If there isn't a way to do this already, then I'd break out the scripting tools, because the Russians, being smart, are going to circle their bombers around the entire group and attack from as many sides as possible. Do you, the NATO commander, leave it for your pickets to handle? Or divert your air-superiority fighters to deal with them? What does that mean for your strike package, and when?
- The Russian carrier group's goal is to clear the skies over the NATO carrier force in order to give the bombers cruise missiles a clear shot. The pickets could help clear the skies, particularly whoever's on the northeast quadrant. But then they're not going to be able to help shoot down missiles as well when the bombers come roaring in soon after.
- Speaking of that picket, it would be interesting to use subs to clear those out so the fighters and bombers would have an equal go at it with NATO fighters. Hope someone had the helicopter deployed.
- If there's some way to retain a sizable fighter presence over the airfields, I'd do it. (This is why I considered a third, more eastern base, stocked with fighters. They're too far to assist in the carrier assault, but they can protect the western airfields.If there's an easier way to do this with some scripting or so, great. Either way, it's to ensure that the NATO player escorts the strike package or cruise missiles in, and forces a decision between fighting off the bomber raids and making sure the bases (and any bombers still on the ground) are eliminated.
This is a rough idea, and could use a lot more polish, but what I think this demonstrates is that for your "final battle", you can have a really intense, huge and difficult engagement, while still making the player feel like their in control of their own success or failure, rather than racing to pull their pants up because someone decided overnight to park their carrier some 500 miles from the one damn ship you're supposed to protect. It puts the player in a stable, secure start (if only for a moment) but then leaves it to them to move fast and furious to hold the line while coordinating an attack of their own.
Thanks, and thanks for making this game fun!
I think I have found something concerning the way to beat this scenario.
I followed the "turn south radar on" idea with a twist.
When mission starts immediately destroy the scout plane that is detected nearby the south fleet.
Then take Iwo Jima carrier and move it backwards on full speed. Let the other 3 ships from its fleet go on towards the objective with radars on.
On north side stop the engines of all ships except from the carrier. Move the carrier back to the opposite direction on slow speed.
Select 3 planes and reassign weapons to something that can destroy bases. You are going to use them later to take down that base nearby.
The missile spamming from enemy will go on as the mission continues towards the south fleet. However if any of the missiles get through the protective "barrier" of the 6 Iwo Jima planes or the countless ones from the nearby second carrier, they will hit the other unimportant ships. Iwo Jima will be safe a bit in the back and soon will be near your base having the support of the planes that are in there.
The AI will soon reveal a second scout plane. If all go according to plan, you must take this down as well.
I am at this exact point right now.
When I alt tab I am about to take down the enemy's north base with "Strike" weaponry. I have also only one Iwo Jima escort ship left. Enemy planes return to south base and my planes are almost out of ammo. I was hoping that I could have that second south carrier in range to destroy the enemy's south base by now but this wasn't possible even if I had it moving on full speed.
I think I am going to play some more minutes and if I see something worth mentioning I will add it here. Looking forward for the save feature to be released as I do not have this much time to spend on the long missions.
Hope the "move carrier back" trick will be helpful for you as well.
EDIT: If you try to recreate this, I have some more details: Difficulty normal, altitude for planes is the lowest possible and speed always on half. Otherwise you will not have enough fuel to take down everything that comes at you.
Last edited by Yannos; 01-05-2012 at 02:37.
...you guys should wait until you get to the "Hyperborean fire" mission
This one is really hard (at least in normal mode) it seems to be all about trying to find P8s and B1s before they can launch their missiles and saturate your south base's defences (they do that very easily indeed at around 8h45/9h00 of ingame's local time), all this while maintaining your only sub alive long enough to make a perfect attack approach on south CG
I stopped playing this campain last mission for the time being as long as the save feature is not implemented - otherwise I will soon have to change my job ...and girlfriend also
I beat the mission using the "south fleet trick", I did lose the Type 45 in the north though
To delay detection of the northern fleet I just switched off it`s weapons and ordered the F-35s on CAP to very low altitude and no weapons...you just have to remember to switch them back on when detected
I managed to launch a naval strike on their fleet before being detected but they still launched their missiles before being hit...it was a very close call, a few SU-35s managed to take off from the northern base before it was destroyed by the tomahawks, by that time I got no air cover left, luckily enough the fleet shot down everything they got and that was it
And there are subs somewhere north of the southern fleet, they launched several missiles near the end, couldn't find them
The lack of in game save option is really frustrating in this kind of missions, too much time invested to see everything ruined at the last moment sometimes...not fun at all
Last edited by Pablius; 08-05-2012 at 05:54.
The really sad thing is that pretty much everyone who completed this mission had to use some kind of trick or stunt in order to do so. Normal common-sense doctrine just does not suffice. I think that any scenario which relies upon gimmicks for victory is not well done.
My Main issue with this mission, is the performance!
You have to pretty much launch all your aircraft to have a chance, and even with all setting turned down, £d view off, and frankly... an EXCELLENT machine that blitzes any other game i have... the frame rate drops so low, that its unplayable.
SanguisAevum I have the same problem hoping the next patch will fix this issue.
Me too. It ends up crashing on me EVERY SINGLE TIME. I have a pretty decent PC so there's no reason the game should constantly crash once the missiles start flying.
Still waiting on my gift from the trip to Bergen contest too....
Update did not fix the performance issue.
During my attempt last night, the client slowed dow to a crawl. Literally updating just once every 30-40 seconds or so.
It is LITERALLY unplayable.
This is the frst bad thing i have come accross in this game, it seriously needs addressing.
If it helps, i have a Core I5-2500 @ 3.30Ghzs, and i am guessing its a proccessor based game. I am wondering if the game is not using the 4 cores properly... i will test next time i try the mission.
Barley 25% of my systems Core is bieng used during this mission.
The very last try, the mission froze as i made contact with the enemy... about 2 mins later it unfroze, and i had lost... it would seem that the "action" continues even when the interface cannot update itself...
This is unnaceptable, i have paid Mony for a product i cannot use, and if possible i would like some input from the Devs.
Thanks in advance.
The machine I´m using for this game is a Mac Mini 2011 with a Core i5, dedicated ATI graphic card and 4GB of RAM, not the worst gaming computer but not exactly a "gaming rig"
Last edited by Pablius; 08-05-2012 at 05:53.
It's not limited to the Ragnarok scenario. I played North by Northwest before the patch and was able to complete it with few problems. Now, the lag and pauses make that scenario unplayable, too. The latest patch release has changed the game from simply unpleasant to unplayable.
I have similar experience, when theres a lot of air missions and missiles in the air it freezes.
I´m trying to cope with this by "roleplaying" it as an computer link going down. A cup of coffee and some pre-planning saves me.
But of course it would be more fun with less lag and freezes.
I found that it isn't limited to the number of aircraft and missiles any longer. I dropped a sonobuoy and watched the screen go totally apesh** with pauses, flickers, and "stuttering".
It only took me an hour real time.....before I lost.....
"A society that robs an individual of the product of his effort, or enslaves him, or attempts to limit the freedom of his mind, or compels him to act against his own rational judgment-a society that sets up a conflict between its edicts and the requirements of man's nature-is not, strictly speaking, a society, but a mob held together by institutionalized gang-rule. Such a society destroys all the values of human coexistence, has no possible justification and represents not a source of benefits, but the deadliest threat to man's survival" -Ayn Rand. Read about the nature of Singapore regime on 'exposingsingapore' blog
This mission would be made so much better (without sacrificing the challenge element) if the landing groups where placed further away from the coast. That way, it is up to the player to clear out the defences instead of just helplessly watch missiles hit their ships or having to resort to an unrealistic tactic.
So why don't you just open the editor, move northern group two or three degrees west and southern two degrees south? It completely changes the scenario. I moved the subs to the east as well. That way the scenario is still challenging, but fun also. If you guys have problem with performance, turn off 3D graphics AND sound.
Just for kicks and giggles I edited the scenario, so I can change sides - with current victory conditions Russia's side is just a joke. Especially with TWO scout planes at the beginning (second one is near Iceland). But change it to sink "two Nimitz class ACs" and it gets interesting. Try it with no cheating like launching Kh-555s to saturate enemy air defence