Cultural and Religous Assimilation

[Ataulf]

I think the issue of assimilation needs to be covered better in MMtG than it has been in previous EU3 mods and vanilla.

In these, one can assimilate a province culturally and religiously, far too quickly.

Historically, assimilation was very rare in this game's timeframe. Pretty much the only major European assimilations were the Christianization of Spain, the Germanicization of the Wends, the Russian colonization of the steppes, and in Southeastern Europe certain migrations (the Romanians, Slovaks, Albanians, Sudeten Germans, etc) and conversions (the Pomaks, Bosniaks). There was no Lithuanization of Belarus, nor christianization of Northern Africa, etc. which often happen in EU3.

Instead of assuming that assimilation is common and easily modeled by one model, working from the top down so to say, it would be better to analyze each of these and by reviewing the factors and causes for these migrations/assimilations, develop a system that can accommodate these and similar changes without allowing a culture or religion switch in five years.

I hope you can model this complex phenomenon well.

Really looking forward to playing this game, no matter what you do

[k_merse]

You can convert the population in several steps, but it needs a lot of time if you want to fully convert them.
Cultural assimilation on the other hand will be almost impossible. Your best chance is to make the culture accepted.

[Ataulf]

Ah, ok, thank you for the clarification

[ubik]

I think the issue of assimilation needs to be covered better in MMtG than it has been in previous EU3 mods and vanilla.

In these, one can assimilate a province culturally and religiously, far too quickly.

Historically, assimilation was very rare in this game's timeframe. Pretty much the only major European assimilations were the Christianization of Spain, the Germanicization of the Wends, the Russian colonization of the steppes, and in Southeastern Europe certain migrations (the Romanians, Slovaks, Albanians, Sudeten Germans, etc) and conversions (the Pomaks, Bosniaks). There was no Lithuanization of Belarus, nor christianization of Northern Africa, etc. which often happen in EU3.

Instead of assuming that assimilation is common and easily modeled by one model, working from the top down so to say, it would be better to analyze each of these and by reviewing the factors and causes for these migrations/assimilations, develop a system that can accommodate these and similar changes without allowing a culture or religion switch in five years.

I hope you can model this complex phenomenon well.

Really looking forward to playing this game, no matter what you do

Very roughly speaking, and bar some very specific cases that lead to opposit results, in terms of religion you can hope to change it in decades. In terms of culture you can hope to change it over several decades up until several centuries.

[Me_]

Very roughly speaking, and bar some very specific cases that lead to opposit results, in terms of religion you can hope to change it in decades. In terms of culture you can hope to change it over several decades up until several centuries.

I always wandered: what about Polonisation of Vilnius and Lviv? It created a situation (that persists to this day) where there is a large Polish population not exactly connected to the rest of Polish-populated territories. Does culture spread to adjacent provinces or can it kind of skip some?

[Konstantinos XV]

@Me_ So basically... centers (capitals) of dominated political units? If only such a concept (political units subject to some central government) existed / was implemented...

[P.T.]

Islam didn't have much trouble assimilating Turkey, Persia, Egypt and all of North Africa as well as Indonesia, Malaysia and parts of the Philippines.
It depends on how pushy you are and how malleable the conquered people are and how persuasive the religion/culture is.

[k_merse]

Changing the religion and changing the culture is totally different.

[Konstantinos XV]

Islam didn't have much trouble assimilating Turkey, Persia, Egypt and all of North Africa as well as Indonesia, Malaysia and parts of the Philippines. It depends on how pushy you are and how malleable the conquered people are and how persuasive the religion/culture is.

*Coughs*
"[Persian] Muslim population go from approx. 40% in the mid 9th century to close to 80% by the end of 11th". Oh look. It took centuries?

"Muslims becoming a majority in Egypt by the mid-10th century" Oh. Here too?

"mass conversions from Christianity to Islam gradually took place over the course of several centuries, such that Syria had become predominantly Muslim by 1100. However, some estimates suggest that Syria may have had a Christian majority within its modern borders until the Mongol invasions of Syria between 1244 and 1323 AD." And in Syria?

At least a couple of centuries would be true even for subjugated Wends. And Muscovite Tatars. Even despite the usual forced baptisms, destruction of holy sites and all sorts of discriminating policies. Interestingly enough, might go well hand in hand with cultural assimilation. (Arabization, Turkification, Germanization, Russification.) I'm not really familiar with Reconquista, but given the above (and Asia Minor) I have a strong gut feeling that "religion swings" over there were quite gradual too.

[Valdy]

It is maybe a bit radical, but...
is there a possibility to relocate the population?
I mean, if i have a province, core on it, and this province has a culture which is not accepted, i could migrate some part (depends of the target province) of my province(s) with my primary culture to that province? This could be a way to accelerate cultural assimilation, but ofcourse it has cost (based on target province - non accepted culture - population).

[Descri]

*Coughs*
"[Persian] Muslim population go from approx. 40% in the mid 9th century to close to 80% by the end of 11th". Oh look. It took centuries?

"Muslims becoming a majority in Egypt by the mid-10th century" Oh. Here too?

"mass conversions from Christianity to Islam gradually took place over the course of several centuries, such that Syria had become predominantly Muslim by 1100. However, some estimates suggest that Syria may have had a Christian majority within its modern borders until the Mongol invasions of Syria between 1244 and 1323 AD." And in Syria?

At least a couple of centuries would be true even for subjugated Wends. And Muscovite Tatars. Even despite the usual forced baptisms, destruction of holy sites and all sorts of discriminating policies. Interestingly enough, might go well hand in hand with cultural assimilation. (Arabization, Turkification, Germanization, Russification.) I'm not really familiar with Reconquista, but given the above (and Asia Minor) I have a strong gut feeling that "religion swings" over there were quite gradual too.

Most of your examples were in a different time period than MMtG, and the Spain and Russia examples are unique and I believe they are modeled.

[k_merse]

It is maybe a bit radical, but...
is there a possibility to relocate the population?
I mean, if i have a province, core on it, and this province has a culture which is not accepted, i could migrate some part (depends of the target province) of my province(s) with my primary culture to that province? This could be a way to accelerate cultural assimilation, but ofcourse it has cost (based on target province - non accepted culture - population).

No, not possible.

[Valdy]

No, not possible.

Maybe in dlc or patch?

[Konstantinos XV]

Most of your examples were in a different time period than MMtG

Which makes <religion>ization what... easier or harder? The Russians were imposing quite ruthless Christianization policies (up to capital punishment for reverting to Islam) in the middle of the 18th century. Apparently because 1-2 centuries of previous (at times quite ruthless as well) policies weren't that successful.

[Descri]

Maybe in dlc or patch?

I'm pretty sure that's against Paradox policy.

Which makes <religion>ization what... easier or harder? The Russians were imposing quite ruthless Christianization policies (up to capital punishment for reverting to Islam) in the middle of the 18th century. Apparently because 1-2 centuries of previous (at times quite ruthless as well) policies weren't that successful.

You would just have a situation where every player converts his country to the most extreme degree. It's better when it's difficult and rare, it creates much more plausible results compared to straight out conversion which mostly didn't happen in the period.

[Konstantinos XV]

You would just have a situation where every player converts his country to the most extreme degree. It's better when it's difficult and rare, it creates much more plausible results compared to straight out conversion which mostly didn't happen in the period.

Gasp. But it's exactly what I'm advocating. With all the "it's centuries long process!!1" examples. And not a missionary working for a few decades. In reply to "Islam didn't have much trouble assimilating..." Which it did apparently.

[Valdy]

I'm pretty sure that's against Paradox policy.

Why? It happened before many times.

[Descri]

Why? It happened before many times.

Forced relocation? In history or in Paradox games?

[Valdy]

Forced relocation? In history or in Paradox games?

In history ofcourse. You don't have literally mean 'forced'.

[Me_]

Forced relocation? In history or in Paradox games?

There's a Trail of Tears decision in Victoria 2.