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Thread: Rapid Expansion of the Turkish (Ottoman) Empire Until 1536

  1. #61
    Major Yasko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by k_merse View Post
    Still it is not good if countries with totally different ideologies can make strong and long alliances with each other. I mean the OE tried to conquer Europe entirely. Obviously no country in Europe would support them for long.
    Ottomans had long alliance with France which lasted more than a century. Ottos also had alliances with various protestant countries against the Habsburgs. Realpolitik is one thing, fooling the dumb masses with religion/ideology is something else. Religion was important since you could use it to grab land from "infidels", but it did not stop Venice for example from forming alliances with Akkoyunlus against Ottos or Karamans.

    In game religion should be very important when it comes to CBs and having lower infamy grabbing land from others, but it should only make diplomacy little more difficult, not impossible as its in EUIII.

    The official reason why Ottos attacked Habsburgs and initiated second siege of Vienna was for example to help Tökeli İmre and his magyars against Austria, i.e. an alliance between protestant magyars and muslim turks.
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  2. #62
    Lt. General CanOmer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by k_merse View Post
    Still it is not good if countries with totally different ideologies can make strong and long alliances with each other. I mean the OE tried to conquer Europe entirely. Obviously no country in Europe would support them for long.
    There was no such goal. The most further goals was Rome and Vienna.

  3. #63
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    ABout Christian-muslim alliances. If memory serves me well, even Crusader states in Holy land allied some muslim states against other muslim states. I remember reading that knights from Europe, which visited Holy land were shocked by this, which lead to a lot of trouble.
    None.

  4. #64
    Artificer Urza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by k_merse View Post
    Still it is not good if countries with totally different ideologies can make strong and long alliances with each other. I mean the OE tried to conquer Europe entirely. Obviously no country in Europe would support them for long.
    But didn't (the kingdom of) France do exactly that?

    (Nvm, too late. I agree with Yasko on everything.)

  5. #65
    Second Lieutenant Robmel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valdy View Post
    In the Turkish rule, whole regions of Hungary was depopulated.
    I don't think it was due to Turkish rule, but because of Hungary becoming battlefield, military frontier with little economic value for both sides (Turkish and Austrian/German).

  6. #66
    Aὐτοκράτωρ Konstantinos XV's Avatar
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    Habsburg-Safavid relations. Muscovy joining the Holy (Catholic) league. France and Protestant princes vs Catholics.

    The problem with Alliances is that they are too unwieldy and too demanding. To the point of being an annoying burden (at least in EU). Besides, EU system doesn't really allow to represent the shifting nature of short-lived agreements. A system of defensive pacts (with an opportunity for long-lasting leagues to evolve into states in European case) and offensive "for this one war" leagues/pacts (for coordinated action vs a common enemy in a one single war) might've been much more flexible. For gameplay purposes there should be an opportunity to place troops under singular control (to prevent fewPMs from being bulldozed over one by one). Could be quite demanding on the AI though. (And naturally, powers involved in cross-religious agreements don't have to be major powers. As was already mentioned, there're numerous examples provided by the Holy Land and the Balkans.)

    On the side note of diplomatic relations, alliances and personal unions. The Spanish monarchy couldn't get Aragonese to fight offensive wars and barely received any taxes from outside Castile. And that's 150 years following the union. *Generic Bill O'Reilly picture*

    Quote Originally Posted by CanOmer View Post
    There was no such goal. The most further goals was Rome and Vienna.
    Appetite comes when eating. What state wouldn't use an opportunity to expand further if possible?
    Last edited by Konstantinos XV; 26-04-2012 at 23:28.

  7. #67
    Lt. General CanOmer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Konstantinos XV View Post
    Appetite comes when eating. What state wouldn't use an opportunity to expand further if possible?
    True, but it is also possible almost everyone.

  8. #68
    Major Yasko's Avatar
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    When Konstantinos mentiones Muscovy, we can also mention Crimean - Musovy alliance against Lithuanian - Golden Horde axe. Maybe even Kazan-Muscovy alliance but it may have been vassalship.

    Oh BTW, i dont know if its implemented. But alliances with heathens should give a monthly legitimacy and/or prestige hit as long as its maintained IMO.
    "Beşiktaş fans call themselves Çarşı and there is no doubt which turkish team have the best and most strident and endearing songs"
    ...........................The Guardian.......................

    "Beşiktaş is the underdog, the working-class team, known for the ardor of its fans. The language of Beşiktaş is characterized both by over-the-top profanity and by the poetry of longing and love. One of the most important Beşiktaşfan clubs is called Çarşi."

    ..............newyorker website................

  9. #69
    Aὐτοκράτωρ Konstantinos XV's Avatar
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    Ah yes. Crimean Tatars. Assisted Poland and Co at Grunwald. Assisted Zaporozhian Cossacks vs PLC.

  10. #70
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    Necessity is the mother of all... alliances.

  11. #71
    Oooh, a Custom User Title? Gwyn ap Nud's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by james24eagle View Post
    Necessity is the mother of all... alliances.
    The consensus seems to be that the limitations of religion on diplomacy are exaggerated in EU3 and that it should be easier to maintain alliances with those of other religions. It sounds like a fair consensus-thingy to me!
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  12. #72
    Colonel james24eagle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gwyn ap Nud View Post
    The consensus seems to be that the limitations of religion on diplomacy are exaggerated in EU3 and that it should be easier to maintain alliances with those of other religions. It sounds like a fair consensus-thingy to me!
    Possible to maintain, yes. Easier to maintain, not necissarily - just implemented differently perhaps. One ought to expect many diplomatic faux-pas, misunderstanding and unpopularity amoungst internal factions and perhaps even allies who are very pious. Not unlike the concept of having Jewish advisors at court - great benefit with a price.

  13. #73
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    maybe allow alliances with heathens between nations with low religious fervor?
    Just because everyone is capable of having an opinion doesn't mean that nobody is full of shit.

    The lack of Belgian patriotism is easily demonstrated by this: there is 1 somewhat succesfull (AKA it's sometimes heard on radios) pro-belgium song and it's sung and written by a dutch man (not an immigrant either, someone who still lives in the Netherlands)

  14. #74
    Comte de Purchase Merrick Chance''s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by demanvanwezel View Post
    maybe allow alliances with heathens between nations with low religious fervor?
    Or have events where you need to pay ~50-100 ducats or accidentally insult your ally?

    (that event sounds like an MMesque event)
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  15. #75
    Lt. General CanOmer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by demanvanwezel View Post
    maybe allow alliances with heathens between nations with low religious fervor?
    Nice

  16. #76
    Lt. General k_merse's Avatar
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    That wouldn't be a penalty big enough for a very liberal country.
    Officially EU4 (but not Euro) skeptic.
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  17. #77
    Countries in the past were a lot more religious. You can't look at a historically correct game and expect it to behave the way modern society does.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by demanvanwezel View Post
    maybe allow alliances with heathens between nations with low religious fervor?
    This would not work to recreate the Ottoman historical experience. The Ottoman society was very fervent (ie sponsoring and building many world famous mosques) at the same time that it was very involved with countries of other religions.

    As I stated before, I am of the belief that the Ottomans deserve a system of their own - and an extraordinary ability to pursue alliances with christian states would be a part of this.

  19. #79
    Second Lieutenant Robmel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zolotaya View Post
    As I stated before, I am of the belief that the Ottomans deserve a system of their own - and an extraordinary ability to pursue alliances with christian states would be a part of this.
    Crimean Khanate, Golden Horde, Kazan, Persia, Granada (and other historical Muslim Iberian minors) frequently entered into alliances with christian neighbors or their christian enemies. To limit such feature only for Ottomans would be wrong.

    Nontraditional alliances could be dependent on leader's (or his adviser's) diplomatic skill (who seeks alliance) and probably also some general religious fervor as it was already mentioned.

    Obviously such alliances wouldn't be long lasting.

  20. #80
    Lt. General CanOmer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zolotaya View Post
    As I stated before, I am of the belief that the Ottomans deserve a system of their own - and an extraordinary ability to pursue alliances with christian states would be a part of this.
    I think the caliphate system can be. OE was the strongest muslim country so it claimed the title of leader of muslim countries. Alternatively, if another muslim country be the strongest, then it would become caliph and gets some bonuses such as ability of better diplomacy options with christian states.

    Another point is, as HRE was the continue of Western Roman Empire, Ottoman Empire was the continue of Eastern Roman Empire. IMO, this can be also use in your system.

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