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Thread: Sphering china?

  1. #1

    Sphering china?

    Should I not be doing it? All of the substates were fine, but every time I got the chinese empire in my sphere I started loosing a ton of money...is there any benefit to doing it then?

  2. #2
    Second Lieutenant Animosity's Avatar
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    The only benefit is havign access to the resources you cannot get otherwise. Silk for industry, more iron for steel factories in which to supply more advanced factories of which goods chinese artisans cannot make.

    I would say, do it only after 1880 if you need the resources. Otherwise it ruin all your basic factories like glass, cement, liquor.

  3. #3
    First Lieutenant minificelle's Avatar
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    Depend of your country.
    Playing a strong industrial power, its np. Anything else will get its economy destroyed.

    In fact, i stopped sphering anything China related a long time ago no matter what i play...Way better to directly conquer some China lands.

    If the land i want is in someone sphere (usually USA or Russia), np, ally the sphere master, declare war and call allies...The sphere master will fight with you...
    You dont even need a strong army, 50 60k men will do wonder...

  4. #4
    Covert Mastermind Demi Moderator Secret Master's Avatar
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    China has a ton of artisans. In AHD, if you sphere them too soon, those artisans will make YOUR economy the subordinate one simply by outproducing you.

    If you are a major industrial power (we're probably talking close to 1000), then China proper might make a good sphere choice. You can out-compete those hordes of artisans via factory efficiency and economies of scale.
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  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Secret Master View Post
    China has a ton of artisans. In AHD, if you sphere them too soon, those artisans will make YOUR economy the subordinate one simply by outproducing you.

    If you are a major industrial power (we're probably talking close to 1000), then China proper might make a good sphere choice. You can out-compete those hordes of artisans via factory efficiency and economies of scale.
    that explains it...I was Russia, and economy wasn't really my focus for the game...

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    Covert Mastermind Demi Moderator Secret Master's Avatar
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    I hate to make a Yakov Smirnov joke about your situation, but I can't help it.

    In your country, factories put small business in foreign countries out of work. In my country, small businesses in foreign countries put everyone else out of work!
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  7. #7
    Captain paulthebug's Avatar
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    Hi there,
    Sorry to hijack the thread, I have a China-related question to ask.
    Do any of you find that fighting China is too easy now in AHD after it had been sub-divided?
    Does not seem too historical to me.

    paulthebug

  8. #8
    Lt. General Sakkura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulthebug View Post
    Hi there,
    Sorry to hijack the thread, I have a China-related question to ask.
    Do any of you find that fighting China is too easy now in AHD after it had been sub-divided?
    Does not seem too historical to me.

    paulthebug
    No, not really. They're all allied anyway. I do find it too easy to hold on to large Chinese territories though. Plus there's not much unequal trading going on, which is why sphering China isn't an economic I-win button. And why having places like Hong Kong means very little.

  9. #9
    Captain paulthebug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sakkura View Post
    No, not really. They're all allied anyway. I do find it too easy to hold on to large Chinese territories though. Plus there's not much unequal trading going on, which is why sphering China isn't an economic I-win button. And why having places like Hong Kong means very little.
    Hi Sakkura,
    What I was trying to say is, that, I can fully conquer China in 2 wars. Then, it is just a matter of "establish protectorate" on the rest of sub-state, with that exception of Guangxi, that takes 2 wars also.
    I mean, historically, even at its weakest moment, Western powers didn't dare to grab China totally, except getting a foot hold here and there, because of its vast size and because it was one united country. Unlike India, which was divided, and that's why the Brit could "divide and conqure."

    Sorry for my bad English.

    paulthebug

  10. #10
    Field Marshal calvinhobbeslik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulthebug View Post
    Hi Sakkura,
    What I was trying to say is, that, I can fully conquer China in 2 wars. Then, it is just a matter of "establish protectorate" on the rest of sub-state, with that exception of Guangxi, that takes 2 wars also.
    I mean, historically, even at its weakest moment, Western powers didn't dare to grab China totally, except getting a foot hold here and there, because of its vast size and because it was one united country. Unlike India, which was divided, and that's why the Brit could "divide and conqure."

    Sorry for my bad English.

    paulthebug
    That easily breaks the infamy limit, which countries IRL weren't willing to do.

    Edit: In my UK game in Vic II(pre AHD), I was able to conquer China in 4 wars; now, it takes 9 wars, so it's actually more difficult.

  11. #11
    Covert Mastermind Demi Moderator Secret Master's Avatar
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    Well, in fairness to historical leaders, even they could not get the same kind of military performance against uncivilized China that human players of Vic2 can get. I'm not talking about the AI playing a bad game, I'm talking about getting Guards and level 3 tactics while China is still sitting at Flintlock Weapons, and just massacring hundreds of Chinese brigades. Historically, the UK and France together won the Second Opium War with intervention armies consisting of 10,000 or more men and fighting at 1/10 odds. In Vic2, I can invade China and the substates by myself with 50,000 men, and defeat Chinese forces numbering at a million or more (1/15 or even 1/20 odds). Hell, the GPs of the 19th Century couldn't move the same kind of massive troop formations to China that human players can. It doesn't really matter how many brigades uncivilized China produces, 1860s military techs render their entirely army obsolete (since human players are better at getting stuff researched than the historical GPs, that means that human player efficiency is along multiple fronts).

    Since the standard of living in the conquered territories tends to shoot way up after conquest by a GP (at least for the employed), the POPs living under foreign rule are not really any more restive than they would be under Chinese rule, since they can actually buy a reasonable amount of goods to offset the nationalism militancy penalties. Life under foreign rule (for Victoria uncivs at least) is much better than other staying in the mother country.

    Basically, what I'm saying is that if the historical GPs could get the same kind of military, research, and economic performance human players of Vic2 are able to get, they probably would have just conquered pieces of China. Hell, Japan did snag pieces of China, as did Russia. Their proximity made the imperialism easier (although Japan had to give stuff back more than once, representing an infamy problem...).
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  12. #12
    Lt. General Sakkura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulthebug View Post
    Hi Sakkura,
    What I was trying to say is, that, I can fully conquer China in 2 wars. Then, it is just a matter of "establish protectorate" on the rest of sub-state, with that exception of Guangxi, that takes 2 wars also.
    I mean, historically, even at its weakest moment, Western powers didn't dare to grab China totally, except getting a foot hold here and there, because of its vast size and because it was one united country. Unlike India, which was divided, and that's why the Brit could "divide and conqure."

    Sorry for my bad English.

    paulthebug
    There was no reason to conquer vast swaths of Chinese territory. They got what they wanted with Hong Kong etc. and unequal treaties. Conquering large areas would just mean far greater costs for keeping order, without commensurate rewards.

    India was less organized, more fractured, and ultimately became as much a source of military power as a drain on it. China would just have been a massive drain on resources if they'd gone on a major conquering spree.

    I'll admit that the Europeans can bring too many troops there with too few logistical problems though. But that's an inherent shortcoming of the V2 combat system. China is able to effectively field more troops than historically too, so it's not like it only favors the Europeans.

  13. #13
    Second Lieutenant Kalpa's Avatar
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    I thought I was ready for sphering china proper (I wanted more tropical wood; already had quanxi sphered, but nothing seems to be enough...) as German Federation in 1867 with a very, very powerful industry (close to 1000 industrial score with industry techs maxed for the time) - aaaand guess what, my cash flow went from +3000 to -4000. Blast it! How bloody powerful can the chinese workshops be...

    ps. sorry for necro, but I figured I'd rather use this thread than make a new one to vent my frustrations! Now, how to desphere china... >_>

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