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How to Become English

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Isaios said:
On what basis d'you say they belong in the North Germanic group? That seems rather odd.
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We're not talking 6th century Angles and Jutes here but 11th century Anglo-Saxons... Old English with a hell of a lot of Norse culture thrown in thanks to years of assimilation and a few Danish kings. Look at the names as well -- late Saxon names were very similar to contemporary Norwegian and Danish names and they even have the same 'son' / 'sson' naming syntax. They also had very similar military traditions / tactics, weapons and shared many of the same gods, literary traditions and myths.

Going by what 'culture' represents in these games, Anglo-Saxon definitely has a lot more in common with the North Germanic peoples than the (middle) English or Germans.

Oh, I also moved Dutch to Central German for similar reasons... I mean they were barely distinguishable in the 11th century anyway, unless you count the (not represented here) Old Frisians.
 
Sleight of Hand said:
That's a bug. Report it. English culture should never appear unless the Normans take England.
Click to expand...

I've reported this via my house of Wessex game where I restored the Anglo-Saxon Eadgar the Aetheling to the throne. It didn't get much of a response, so hopefully more than one person will allow this to get fixed.
 
moldeh said:
It's really easy to figure out why the saxons got longbows. It's a gameplay thing... guess what would happen to all those Saxon buildings when the English culture took over (which almost always happens, even with the Godwins in power, since there is always at least one Norman left in England long enough to trigger the initial event). Similarly, the only place you'll find the Saxons is england and, like I said, it almost always turns english; designing a building that will not get much or even any use at all is kinda silly.
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Why do you say this?

I have seen English characters appearing in my games where I have played as England and have successfully repelled the Norman Invasion so where would the Normans that you speak of come from? I have raised this in the bug forum because I cannot understand how English characters can appear. My reading of the event code is that you need a Normal ruler in England to start the process.
 
londoner247 said:
Why do you say this?

I have seen English characters appearing in my games where I have played as England and have successfully repelled the Norman Invasion so where would the Normans that you speak of come from? I have raised this in the bug forum because I cannot understand how English characters can appear. My reading of the event code is that you need a Normal ruler in England to start the process.
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Do you mean there's literally not a single Norman noble in England? In my game, there were a couple of Norman families clinging on in England who had turned English, but they had converted me, the King, rather than the other way around. I had made sure not to allow my children to be educated by Normans or Englishmen, so it was only via event I converted, and later my characters seemingly started to convert without even an event to tell me they had done so.
 
Manse Kim said:
Do you mean there's literally not a single Norman noble in England? In my game, there were a couple of Norman families clinging on in England who had turned English, but they had converted me, the King, rather than the other way around. I had made sure not to allow my children to be educated by Normans or Englishmen, so it was only via event I converted, and later my characters seemingly started to convert without even an event to tell me they had done so.
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Unless there was a Norman noble in there at game start in 1066, that is exactly what I mean. I certainly never granted a title to a Norman and I started as King Harold in 1066. There's a link to my save game over in the bug forum (http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?598886-English-culture) so by all means have a look at that and see if you can work it out. I raised the bug after close of business on Thursday for Paradox so they haven't had a chance to look at it and comment yet.
 
londoner247 said:
Why do you say this?

I have seen English characters appearing in my games where I have played as England and have successfully repelled the Norman Invasion so where would the Normans that you speak of come from? I have raised this in the bug forum because I cannot understand how English characters can appear. My reading of the event code is that you need a Normal ruler in England to start the process.
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Well, I'm saying this because the event doesn't trigger if there aren't any Normans in England. Maybe one of your countesses married a Norman or something. A lot of people have played games in which they stayed Saxon, so it's not broken and there can't be any Norman lords in England in 1066, because, in that case, this wouldn't have been possible.
 
moldeh said:
Well, I'm saying this because the event doesn't trigger if there aren't any Normans in England. Maybe one of your countesses married a Norman or something. A lot of people have played games in which they stayed Saxon, so it's not broken and there can't be any Norman lords in England in 1066, because, in that case, this wouldn't have been possible.
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But it makes no sense at all for the event chain to trigger as the result of an isolated marriage in one part of the Kingdom. This event chain, whilst historically inaccurate, is about Norman overlords making their lives easier by appeasing their subjects and so creating a hybrid culture.

If I understand this correctly, none of the subsidiary events are supposed to fire unless the first one has been triggered and that is only supposed to happen if the Kingdom of England has a Norman ruler.

Isaios said:
It triggers sometime after 1100, for any county within the Kingdom of England, has a MTTH of 1200 months and is impacted by having a high learning trait. At 13 Learning the MTTH drops to 380 months. It requires the demesne holder being Norman and the demesne culture to be Saxon.

Once the initial event fires, other event fire to make your court, vassals and provinces switch culture to English.

Code: 
# The English Melting Pot
character_event = {
	id = 55002
	desc = "EVTDESC55002"
	picture = GFX_evt_throne_room
	
	trigger = {
		year = 1100
		culture = norman
		any_demesne_province = {
			kingdom = {
				title = k_england
			}
			culture = saxon
		}
	}
	
	mean_time_to_happen = {
		months = 1200
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.75
			learning = 7
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.75
			learning = 9
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.75
			learning = 11
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.75
			learning = 13
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.5
			NOT = { learning = 5 }
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.5
			NOT = { learning = 3 }
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 2.0
			NOT = { learning = 1 }
		}
	}

	option = {
		name = "EVTOPTA55002"
		culture = english
		random_demesne_province = {
			limit = {
				kingdom = {
					title = k_england
				}
				culture = saxon
			}
			culture = english
		}
	}
}

# It's spreading
character_event = {
	id = 55003
	desc = "EVTDESC55003"
	picture = GFX_evt_throne_room
	
	trigger = {
		year = 1100
		culture = english
		any_demesne_province = {
			kingdom = {
				title = k_england
			}
			OR = {
				culture = saxon
				culture = norman
			}
		}
	}
	
	mean_time_to_happen = {
		months = 720
	}

	option = {
		name = "EVTOPTA55003"
		random_demesne_province = {
			limit = {
				kingdom = {
					title = k_england
				}
				OR = {	
					culture = saxon
					culture = norman
				}
			}
			culture = english
		}
	}
}

#Make my court speak English
character_event = {
	id = 55004
	desc = "EVTDESC55004"
	picture = GFX_evt_throne_room

	trigger = {
		year = 1100
		culture = english
		top_liege = {
			primary_title = {
				title = k_england
			}
		}
		any_courtier = {
			OR = {
				culture = saxon
				culture = norman
			}
		}
	}
	
	mean_time_to_happen = {
		months = 120
	}

	option = {
		name = "EVTOPTA55004"
		random_courtier = {
			limit = {
				OR = {	
					culture = saxon
					culture = norman
				}
			}
			culture = english
			hidden_tooltip = {
				character_event = { id = 55006 days = 3 }
			}
		}
	}
}

#Make my vassal speak English
character_event = {
	id = 55005
	desc = "EVTDESC55005"
	picture = GFX_evt_throne_room

	trigger = {
		year = 1100
		culture = english
		top_liege = {
			primary_title = {
				title = k_england
			}
		}
		any_vassal = {
			OR = {
				culture = saxon
				culture = norman
			}
		}
	}
	
	mean_time_to_happen = {
		months = 720
	}

	option = {
		name = "EVTOPTA55005"
		random_vassal = {
			limit = {
				OR = {	
					culture = saxon
					culture = norman
				}
			}
			culture = english
			hidden_tooltip = {
				character_event = { id = 55006 days = 3 }
			}
		}
	}
}

character_event = {
	id = 55006
	desc = "EVTDESC55006"
	picture = GFX_evt_throne_room

	is_triggered_only = yes

	option = {
		name = "EVTOPTA55006"
		culture = english
	}
}
Click to expand...

The fact that people are seeing English characters (and eventually English culture provinces) without a Norman King certainly suggests to me that something is broken.
 
One norman count ruling over a Saxon province is enough to trigger the event. A countess marrying a norman man and producing norman offspring (maybe because she chose a shy and slothful tutor to make her kids saxon again, since the AI always goes for that in situations like these) can lead to a norman count in Saxon England. Then, one day... 'I say, a game of cricket anyone?'.
 
moldeh said:
One norman count ruling over a Saxon province is enough to trigger the event. A countess marrying a norman man and producing norman offspring (maybe because she chose a shy and slothful tutor to make her kids saxon again, since the AI always goes for that in situations like these) can lead to a norman count in Saxon England. Then, one day... 'I say, a game of cricket anyone?'.
Click to expand...

Even if that is right (and, as I said before, I don't think it makes sense in the in-game context for this event stream) how does that explain my screenshot over in the bug forum where I, as a Saxon King, am being asked to convert to English culture by one of my courtiers?
 
londoner247 said:
Even if that is right (and, as I said before, I don't think it makes sense in the in-game context for this event stream) how does that explain my screenshot over in the bug forum where I, as a Saxon King, am being asked to convert to English culture by one of my courtiers?
Click to expand...

Once the initial event, which requires a norman lord to be ruling over a saxon county in england, triggers, the events that come afterwards convert both Normans and Saxons to English culture. What you should do is check the history of all your counties and see if there's at least one Norman count post-1100. If there's none, then it is indeed a bug. But, as I said before, a lot of people have played Saxon games and haven't been converted to English, so that's probably not it.
 
moldeh said:
Once the initial event, which requires a norman lord to be ruling over a saxon county in england, triggers, the events that come afterwards convert both Normans and Saxons to English culture. What you should do is check the history of all your counties and see if there's at least one Norman count post-1100. If there's none, then it is indeed a bug. But, as I said before, a lot of people have played Saxon games and haven't been converted to English, so that's probably not it.
Click to expand...

That would take me a LONG time so I think I'll pass ...

I'm willing to accept you may be right about the mechanics but I still struggle to see why the influence of one Norman immigrant should be so widespread and so suspect that the code for the initial event should be tightened up to require a more significant Norman presence.
 
Ideally the trigger should be that the king and the top-tier vassals (dukes) are all Norman, but I have no idea how to create a trigger from that.
 
Sleight of Hand said:
Ideally the trigger should be that the king and the top-tier vassals (dukes) are all Norman, but I have no idea how to create a trigger from that.
Click to expand...

I disagree that the trigger should require a Norman King. It's not about someone forcing him culture on other people, it's more of a 'this is a better way of communicating with the Saxons' and then this new culture slowly takes over the whole county's lords. One count shouldn't be enough, but having it trigger if there's a few counts, or a duke sounds reasonable imo.
 
moldeh said:
I disagree that the trigger should require a Norman King. It's not about someone forcing him culture on other people, it's more of a 'this is a better way of communicating with the Saxons' and then this new culture slowly takes over the whole county's lords. One count shouldn't be enough, but having it trigger if there's a few counts, or a duke sounds reasonable imo.
Click to expand...

In real life the Normans made no significant effort to curry favour with the Saxons but simply rules through force of arms. Indeed, the language in use by English monarchs remained French for hundreds of years after the Norman Conquest.

The reason that this event chain exists in game terms is not to simulate something that happened in real life but to allow for an accepted culture to appear in England which otherwise would never happen because Norman culture cannot spread across the English channel unless an English County switched to a non Christian faith.

Against that background it seems to me that the first event in the chain should not trigger unless there is a Norman King. Anything else would mean that the Norman Conquest either failed or was overthrown in a subsequent uprising and so should leave Saxon culture in place. The presence of a minority of Norman nobility would simply mean that they have been invited into the Realm, either as potential claimants used by a King or Duke to expand their territory or as spouses (regular or matrilineal) and in these cases it would be more likely that the Norman immigrant would adapt to Saxon culture than that he or she would influence the creation of a Saxon-Norman hybrid culture that then spreads throughout the Kingdom.
 
moldeh said:
Once the initial event, which requires a norman lord to be ruling over a saxon county in england, triggers, the events that come afterwards convert both Normans and Saxons to English culture. What you should do is check the history of all your counties and see if there's at least one Norman count post-1100. If there's none, then it is indeed a bug. But, as I said before, a lot of people have played Saxon games and haven't been converted to English, so that's probably not it.
Click to expand...

Although it was too late last night for me to check this, I've now had a look at every Saxon County in De Jure and De Facto England and not one of them has ever had a Norman Earl. I've had occasional Frankish or Norwegian Earls but, apart from that, they have all either been Saxon or English.

I cannot check the Bishoprics, Baronies or Cities to see whether they ever had a Norman Bishop, Baron or Mayor but, at least as far as my game is concerned, there appears to be no basis for the first event in the sequence to have triggered and so I remain of the view that this is a bugged event chain.
 
Does anyone know how to edit the original event's trigger so that it only fires if the king is Norman and his family have been ruling for at least a decade?
 
Code: 
primary_title = {
			title = k_england
		}

I think that should be the only line to add in the first event. That way only the King of England gets to get this event. The other any_demesne_province part refers to de jure titles, afaik, meaning that any Norman guy with some holdings in the de jure Kingdom of England can get the event. Correct me, if I'm wrong.
 
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