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Isaios said:
That and the names makes the change both nescessary and desireable.
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Not in the case of the Saxons. It should be possible for the Frenchies to acclimate to the English culture, but why should the Old English change culture if they maintain their independence?
 
Isaios said:
... They shouldn't. That's a bug. Which was written in several posts.
Click to expand...

Yes I know. That's what we're talking about here.

IMHO there's no need for an artificial construct like this...

Here's another question: is there still a Norman culture in England down the line? How about in Normandy? In 1150, there shouldn't be a cultural split between English Normans and Norman Normans.
 
AlexanderPrimus said:
Well that's just it, isn't it?

Robert, Richard, Henry and William were all names brought over from Normandy.

You had a few holdovers that became popular with the aristocracy like Edward and Edmund, but the English royalty were all Francophone at that point. And they were even more French after the Angevins took over.

Personally I don't have a problem with things being depicted how they really were. Let the Frenchies be Frenchies.
Click to expand...
William is not a possible names for Norman-cultured characters. Guillame is. There's no way to include regional names in CK2, so if you leave the Normans Normans you can only have English rulers named Edward if the Saxons beat William the Conquerer.

Moreover you still get all the bells and whistles they added for culture in CK2 wrong if you don't have separate English and Saxon cultures. The Saxon/English one is Longbowman. The Normans get Knights. If you don't have a new culture for the Norman aristocracy in England you cannot, repeat cannot, simulate what happened IRL where the Normans conquered England with Knights and then kept it with Longbowman.

And that's not mentioning the various wrong culture penalties, that clearly should not be present in England after about 1200, but would have to be present if you don't a) move Normans to the same culture group as the Anglo-Saxons, which would cause some pretty clear problems in their non-English holdings, or b) Move Anglo-Saxons to the latin culture group, which would cause no countries to break in any start-date AFAIK, but would be freaking ridiculous.

Nick
 
Nick B II said:
Moreover you still get all the bells and whistles they added for culture in CK2 wrong if you don't have separate English and Saxon cultures. The Saxon/English one is Longbowman. The Normans get Knights. If you don't have a new culture for the Norman aristocracy in England you cannot, repeat cannot, simulate what happened IRL where the Normans conquered England with Knights and then kept it with Longbowman.
Click to expand...

Why do the Saxons get Longbowmen?

Nick B II said:
And that's not mentioning the various wrong culture penalties, that clearly should not be present in England after about 1200, but would have to be present if you don't a) move Normans to the same culture group as the Anglo-Saxons, which would cause some pretty clear problems in their non-English holdings, or b) Move Anglo-Saxons to the latin culture group, which would cause no countries to break in any start-date AFAIK, but would be freaking ridiculous.
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Yes, it is ridiculous. I honestly don't think cultures need to be so set in stone. There needs to be a better mechanism to simulate diffusion. I don't know what that would be. Multiple cultures perhaps? Combinations?

If a person could be Anglo-Norman, Norse-Gaelic, Anglo-Danish, Siculo-Norman... sharing elements of both cultures... seems like that would make a lot of sense.
 
You should move Anglo-Saxon to the North Germanic culture group (the three Nordic cultures) as it makes much more sense that way -- the Norse wouldn't have had anywhere near the problems trying to assimilate the English that the Normans did. I also moved Dutch to the Central Germanic group.
 
AlexanderPrimus said:
If a person could be Anglo-Norman, Norse-Gaelic, Anglo-Danish, Siculo-Norman... sharing elements of both cultures... seems like that would make a lot of sense.
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That's pretty hard to implement... You'd need to have melting pots for all sorts of cultures and all their possible combinations. There's a mod that does that for Sicily, but expecting something like that for every culture is unrealistic to say the least. It won't happen because it's too hard to implement, not to mention that it would create a lot of problems. What happens when you conquer 3 different kingdoms with 3 different cultures? It's obviously a realistic and fun way of dealing with the culture situation but, let's face it, it's very hard to implement without causing more problems than it solves.
 
moldeh said:
That's pretty hard to implement... You'd need to have melting pots for all sorts of cultures and all their possible combinations. ... It's obviously a realistic and fun way of dealing with the culture situation but, let's face it, it's very hard to implement without causing more problems than it solves.
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Not entirely. It would just require a fundamentally different approach to coding the cultures. I agree that it would be hard to implement under the current system. That doesn't mean we shouldn't think about it for the potential future.
 
You'd have to start calculating cultures more like genetics or some such approach....like 25% Norwegian, 25% Irish, and 50% GErman for example. Just seems like at that point culture becomes irrelevant.
 
AlexanderPrimus said:
Not entirely. It would just require a fundamentally different approach to coding the cultures. I agree that it would be hard to implement under the current system. That doesn't mean we shouldn't think about it for the potential future.
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I agree completely. But I don't think that it's doable in CK2.

You'd have to start calculating cultures more like genetics or some such approach....like 25% Norwegian, 25% Irish, and 50% GErman for example. Just seems like at that point culture becomes irrelevant.
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Yeah that's sort of what I was trying to say. Once you conquer a crapload of cultures then what? You make a single meta-culture of sorts? Might as well just remove culture altogether. This is one of the major reasons why I don't think that a dynamic culture system could ever work in CK2.
 
Nah, I don't think it could be fully realized in CK2.

The only approach that I think could work would be to create a combination for a minority culture that has been surrounded by a majority culture for a certain period of time.

For example:

Suppose the Normans take England, and rule it for a century. By that point, you've got Anglo-Normans, who have acclimated to the surrounding culture.

This new Anglo-Norman culture could technically belong to both parent culture groups to avoid culture clash. Basically you'd have a notable minority that has adjusted to living with a different majority culture, like happens in real life. In principle, it'd just be Normans who have acclimated to the point that they're similar to the English locals while still maintaining some distinctive Norman traits.

You couldn't mash it up again though, that'd be too messy. Just one base culture acclimating to another due to proximity, no multi-culture fusions.

Also, I think it's a bad idea to mess around with percentages. Biological ancestry does not necessarily determine culture.
 
Yeah to be honest I think Paradox have given us a happy medium -- it's gonna get awful complex otherwise, and having 50/50 cultures would never work.
 
Isaios said:
It triggers sometime after 1100, for any county within the Kingdom of England, has a MTTH of 1200 months and is impacted by having a high learning trait. At 13 Learning the MTTH drops to 380 months. It requires the demesne holder being Norman and the demesne culture to be Saxon.

Once the initial event fires, other event fire to make your court, vassals and provinces switch culture to English.

Code: 
# The English Melting Pot
character_event = {
	id = 55002
	desc = "EVTDESC55002"
	picture = GFX_evt_throne_room
	
	trigger = {
		year = 1100
		culture = norman
		any_demesne_province = {
			kingdom = {
				title = k_england
			}
			culture = saxon
		}
	}
	
	mean_time_to_happen = {
		months = 1200
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.75
			learning = 7
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.75
			learning = 9
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.75
			learning = 11
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 0.75
			learning = 13
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.5
			NOT = { learning = 5 }
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 1.5
			NOT = { learning = 3 }
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 2.0
			NOT = { learning = 1 }
		}
	}

	option = {
		name = "EVTOPTA55002"
		culture = english
		random_demesne_province = {
			limit = {
				kingdom = {
					title = k_england
				}
				culture = saxon
			}
			culture = english
		}
	}
}

# It's spreading
character_event = {
	id = 55003
	desc = "EVTDESC55003"
	picture = GFX_evt_throne_room
	
	trigger = {
		year = 1100
		culture = english
		any_demesne_province = {
			kingdom = {
				title = k_england
			}
			OR = {
				culture = saxon
				culture = norman
			}
		}
	}
	
	mean_time_to_happen = {
		months = 720
	}

	option = {
		name = "EVTOPTA55003"
		random_demesne_province = {
			limit = {
				kingdom = {
					title = k_england
				}
				OR = {	
					culture = saxon
					culture = norman
				}
			}
			culture = english
		}
	}
}

#Make my court speak English
character_event = {
	id = 55004
	desc = "EVTDESC55004"
	picture = GFX_evt_throne_room

	trigger = {
		year = 1100
		culture = english
		top_liege = {
			primary_title = {
				title = k_england
			}
		}
		any_courtier = {
			OR = {
				culture = saxon
				culture = norman
			}
		}
	}
	
	mean_time_to_happen = {
		months = 120
	}

	option = {
		name = "EVTOPTA55004"
		random_courtier = {
			limit = {
				OR = {	
					culture = saxon
					culture = norman
				}
			}
			culture = english
			hidden_tooltip = {
				character_event = { id = 55006 days = 3 }
			}
		}
	}
}

#Make my vassal speak English
character_event = {
	id = 55005
	desc = "EVTDESC55005"
	picture = GFX_evt_throne_room

	trigger = {
		year = 1100
		culture = english
		top_liege = {
			primary_title = {
				title = k_england
			}
		}
		any_vassal = {
			OR = {
				culture = saxon
				culture = norman
			}
		}
	}
	
	mean_time_to_happen = {
		months = 720
	}

	option = {
		name = "EVTOPTA55005"
		random_vassal = {
			limit = {
				OR = {	
					culture = saxon
					culture = norman
				}
			}
			culture = english
			hidden_tooltip = {
				character_event = { id = 55006 days = 3 }
			}
		}
	}
}

character_event = {
	id = 55006
	desc = "EVTDESC55006"
	picture = GFX_evt_throne_room

	is_triggered_only = yes

	option = {
		name = "EVTOPTA55006"
		culture = english
	}
}
Click to expand...
Hmm, is that the only way ? So, my realm will never be English unless I conquer Egland ? The mean time to happen is really random. They (all) just suddenly become English less than that. Edited : Wait a minute, any culture Saxon or Norman. That does not happen to me. Perhaps, its because not in the same kingdom ? My liege does not get it either when he is independent (Duch of Hereford).
The MTTH for culture spread is 13 stewardship, but a character with 9 can make it happen in a few years after rulership.

Sleight of Hand said:
Yeah to be honest I think Paradox have given us a happy medium -- it's gonna get awful complex otherwise, and having 50/50 cultures would never work.
Click to expand...
It seem if we have a character educated in other culture and return to the first culture, when selecting my culture we get both culture. They seem in work partially. Maybe Paradox has plan or simply is a bug.
 
AlexanderPrimus said:
Why do the Saxons get Longbowmen?
Click to expand...

Perhaps Christ came down from the heavens, and instructed Johan to give the Saxons archers?

I actually originally wrote that the Saxons had their own building for heavy infantry, but I checked the game-files and they share a building with the English.

So they got longbowman.
AlexanderPrimus said:
Yes, it is ridiculous. I honestly don't think cultures need to be so set in stone. There needs to be a better mechanism to simulate diffusion. I don't know what that would be. Multiple cultures perhaps? Combinations?

If a person could be Anglo-Norman, Norse-Gaelic, Anglo-Danish, Siculo-Norman... sharing elements of both cultures... seems like that would make a lot of sense.
Click to expand...

There are plenty of ideas.

The problem is implementation. Changing this would require a) a DLC or b) adding thousands of potential hybrid-cultures to the game. For b) I'm being quite literal. There actually would need to be thousands of name-lists made up, and each of the thousands of cultures would have to be put in a culture group, etc.

For a paid DLC hybrid cultures would be cool, and probably even do-able. The trick would be convincing Paradox to improve a feature they already seem to like a lot.

Nick
 
Last edited:
Nick B II said:
Perhaps Christ came down from the heavens, and instructed Johan to give the Saxons archers?

I actually originally wrote that the Saxons had their own building for heavy infantry, but I checked the game-files and they share a building with the English.

So they got longbowman.
Click to expand...

Lol. Heavy Infantry would have been preferable, indeed. Huscarls for the win.
 
English Culture spawn?

When does the English culture start? it's 1127 and I'm still Norman England with no English Culture at all yet, and I own all of the De Jure of England. Is there something I don't know about the English culture starting?
 
Ok. You need your character to be Norman when that first happens and happen only that one time it seems. Saxon King in England will never get the vent to become English even after the first event happpens by previous ruler and even if that Saxon king has English vassals. Must convert to english and then the spread event kicks in at moderate rate. The court is usually slower than vassals. Much much slower.
 
AlexanderPrimus said:
Lol. Heavy Infantry would have been preferable, indeed. Huscarls for the win.
Click to expand...

It's really easy to figure out why the saxons got longbows. It's a gameplay thing... guess what would happen to all those Saxon buildings when the English culture took over (which almost always happens, even with the Godwins in power, since there is always at least one Norman left in England long enough to trigger the initial event). Similarly, the only place you'll find the Saxons is england and, like I said, it almost always turns english; designing a building that will not get much or even any use at all is kinda silly.
 
Last edited:
Let the English and Welsh have longbows, and give the Saxons huscarls. I also moved them to the Norse culture group as it's where they belong.
 
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