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  1. #281
    Master of Lulz Elcyion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sickness_ View Post
    You have a very strange idea of what an RPG is.
    Meh i wouldent call Diablo a RPG either but then again im old rpger since Baldurs gate so
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  2. #282
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sickness_ View Post
    You have a very strange idea of what an RPG is.
    Or perhaps you've been foiled by marketing into thinking that anything that moves with a HP,Energy&ActionBars items and levelprogression is unique RPG elements and therefore Diablo is a RPG.

    The definition of a RPG accordingly to Wikipedia is that a RPG is a story being told by the participants, Are you _telling_ a story or are you getting _told_ a story? You're getting _told_ a story therefore the element that define RPGs is not being fullfilled but certainly Diablo have plenty of typical RPG elements in it. There is a fine word as mentioned earlier ARPG although but that has very little to do with RPG except of name. Down to basics it's a isometric action game with RPG elements.
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  3. #283
    At the risk of making this a meta-discussion, the label RPG is at best suggestive if not really helpful when it comes to conveying the qualities of a game. The telling story/being told story is, in my opinion certainly a good way of differentiating, but seriously, it does not really help either. Take for example JRPG that are often painfully scripted without any choices in movement, ethics and shaping the world. Diablo -- at least Diablo 2 -- had a scripted story and choice mechanic, while letting one deviate from the path, find some quest-giver or bandit and slay something else for a while without "living it" beyond accepting or walking away.

    Still, I would hold that the label RPG for Diablo might apply, although only loosly. Role-playing isn't about being given the option of being anyone, but the freedom to make yourself role-play as a monk, crazed warlock or vagabond -- i.e freedom within character. This is why TES with massive opportunities and JRPGs, were I have the choice of 'cry' or 'cry louder,' are both RPGs. Diablo probably qualifies since there is limited role-play interaction and customization, but I would agree with jvpg that it's not much of role-play when you're essencially role-playing a force of destruction heading towards an arch-demon. ARPG, emphasis on the A. RPGs pretty much comes down to "Does it feel like one?"

  4. #284
    Second Lieutenant Sickness_'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jpvg View Post
    Or perhaps you've been foiled by marketing into thinking that anything that moves with a HP,Energy&ActionBars items and levelprogression is unique RPG elements and therefore Diablo is a RPG.

    The definition of a RPG accordingly to Wikipedia is that a RPG is a story being told by the participants, Are you _telling_ a story or are you getting _told_ a story? You're getting _told_ a story therefore the element that define RPGs is not being fullfilled but certainly Diablo have plenty of typical RPG elements in it. There is a fine word as mentioned earlier ARPG although but that has very little to do with RPG except of name. Down to basics it's a isometric action game with RPG elements.
    "A role-playing game (RPG and sometimes roleplaying game) is a game in which players assume the roles of characters in a fictional setting. "
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  5. #285
    Quote Originally Posted by jpvg View Post
    Or perhaps you've been foiled by marketing into thinking that anything that moves with a HP,Energy&ActionBars items and levelprogression is unique RPG elements and therefore Diablo is a RPG.

    The definition of a RPG accordingly to Wikipedia is that a RPG is a story being told by the participants, Are you _telling_ a story or are you getting _told_ a story? You're getting _told_ a story therefore the element that define RPGs is not being fullfilled but certainly Diablo have plenty of typical RPG elements in it. There is a fine word as mentioned earlier ARPG although but that has very little to do with RPG except of name. Down to basics it's a isometric action game with RPG elements.
    Well there aren't actually level progression or choice in diablo 3, so even by that definition its not an RPG But just because it says so in wikipedia does not make it true.

    To me story and choice is definitly a part of an RPG, but so is having a character with choices and skill progression and so on. Which is why I don't really considder mass effect 3 an RPG either. Mass effect 1 was already pretty light on RPG elements, and they stripped all that completely down in their two sequals. you don't have that much choice in behavior either to be honest. Its more like a pretty good interactive story with a lot of shooting stuff inbetween than an actual RPG.
    Last edited by Janlm; 22-05-2012 at 13:43.

  6. #286
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sickness_ View Post
    "A role-playing game (RPG and sometimes roleplaying game) is a game in which players assume the roles of characters in a fictional setting. "
    "A role-playing game (RPG and sometimes roleplaying game) is a game in which players assume the roles of characters in a fictional setting. Players take responsibility for acting out these roles within a narrative, either through literal acting, or through a process of structured decision-making or character development

    You missed something on your post.

    "Character Development" has nothing to do with levelling up or getting more/betters skills. but with the development of characters in terms of acting aspects or as LOTR develops Gandalf from one color to another (to verify, please do look at the note attached to it on wikipedia).

    Have you had it cut out enough yet?
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  7. #287
    Major jpvg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janlm View Post
    Well there aren't actually level progression or choice in diablo 3, so even by that definition its not an RPG But just because it says so in wikipedia does not make it true.

    To me story and choice is definitly a part of an RPG, but so is having a character with choices and skill progression and so on. Which is why I don't really considder mass effect 3 an RPG either. Mass effect 1 was already pretty light on RPG elements, and they stripped all that completely down in their two sequals. you don't have that much choice in behavior either to be honest. Its more like a pretty good interactive story with a lot of shooting stuff inbetween than an actual RPG.
    Yes I agree completely but nevertheless it actually manages to go from being an interactive story and to a RPG in definition but agreed 90% of the time it's a fine interactive story
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  8. #288
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    Quote Originally Posted by jpvg View Post
    "Character Development" has nothing to do with levelling up or getting more/betters skills.
    Ofcourse it has.
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  9. #289
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sickness_ View Post
    Ofcourse it has.
    ..................... RELEVANT to this sentence, yes character development has something to do with levelling up or getting more/better skills but not in this sentence as you can see from the note.

    as in the type of character development referred to is not about levelling, it's about the acting!
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  10. #290
    Lt. General Lama43's Avatar
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    Official definitions are often old. Strictly speaking, any game where you move your character can be identified as an RPG. But today, an RPG is more a game where the player can take a type of character and develop it with skills, items and the like.

  11. #291
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    I have clearly linked to Wikipedia a ton of times on two different pages regarding roleplaying games, they both come up with the same definition despite being laid out in two different ways. Again just because I say I'm 10" dosen't mean that I am 10", it's marketing. I honestly don't care what you call it but BY DEFINITION, it is not RPG. Feel free to call it anything you like however but this :

    Quote Originally Posted by Lama43 View Post
    Official definitions are often old. Strictly speaking, any game where you move your character can be identified as an RPG. But today, an RPG is more a game where the player can take a type of character and develop it with skills, items and the like.
    will allow Snake to be honorable mentioned as perhaps the biggest RPG in the 80s and later immortalized on Nokia phones. Lets get real eh?
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  12. #292
    Second Lieutenant Sickness_'s Avatar
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    By your definition, how can any game be an RPG?
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  13. #293
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sickness_ View Post
    By Wikipedias definition, how can any game be an RPG?
    You're claiming that any game with the following four things is a RPG -> Stats, Character Progression, Inventory & a Storyline (that's basically diablo yes?)

    Alright Unreal Tournament got all 4 things, is it a RPG? No it is not. What's missing?

    2 Examples, had UT had any of these things you might have been willing to consider it a RPG despite it's clear FPS Deathmatch Nature :

    Open Worldiness
    By evolving the characters that you play ie Mass Effect, your character grows upon your choices as a character not in terms of statistics, the same happends in BG, Torment and pretty much every standard RPG, Daggerfall & Morrowind included. Direct Example - If you decide to slay innocent people that's fine, there is a price to it in terms of options or lack of options because of it and the game might send guards after you ie Daggerfall but on the other hand you get to join the local generic assassins guild if you wish. (note that ie Mass effect is almost as closed as Diablo on this issue despite that, it still got some, Diablo got ~none in #2 you get to pick like a hireling althought it's not really an element of RPG, it merely helps boost your stats even further and there is next to no interaction between you and your hireling).

    Ability to influence the storyline:
    Mass Effect, BG as examples. Please note that you don't have to be able to influence the outcome of the story just as you don't have to do so in tabletop RPGs, although clearly you can do so in atleast Mass Effect/Daggerfall but elements along the road such as one situation may be handled by words or finances and in the next time you play you can simply slay the beast would be fine.

    Funny enough, that's the same problem with Diablo, it has none of the above which loosely defines the genre(there might be extras/exceptions like the hireling).

    I honestly don't know how to cut this out any better for you.
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  14. #294
    Jpvg, 'Open World' and Influence of Story' line doesn't quite cut it. The definition and the examples you have brought up so far can really only be exemplified by the quite late western creations of Bethesta and Bioware in which there is often an element of moral or ending influencing choice. However if we need a truly Open World or story infuence, where exactly do we fit in a lot of RPG games, especially in the old Japanese sub-category?

    Take for example Golden Sun [anyone?], in which I more or less follow a protagonist and his motley crew from locale to locale separated along the way by a world map I am free to explore. There is no real sidequest or sidestories, but hidden dungeons where I may find a better sword or demon I can bring along. I follow a narrative filled with motivations and interactions I have no control over, apart from my option of partaking in a string of dialogue and questions ultimately resulting in the same worldly reaction [Fight!]. I do however have the opportunity to level my characters, select weapons and skill development and wander the cities looking for people that will sell me stuff of simply give vague hints to the state of the city, obviously hinting at what confrontation or problem lies ahead. Is this not RPG in its simplest form?

    If a fixed story, player driven but ultimately predetermined dialogue, a free to travel overworld -- although there is really one place to go, and complex, timeconsuming stat building is an RPG... then why isn't Diablo one? It's not a perticulary complex one and the over-world might be sealed of from time to time like in every bloody Final Fantasy game, but it's still essentially an RPG. Then where to draw the line one might ask. Obviously, imo, ZELDA. It has all the same things as Golden Sun of FF, except one thing: Stat building. Ergo, one must recognise that player influenced stat building is an important and defining trait of RPGs. This is why Biochock was called an action game with RPG elements. It had defining trait that differed from the examples mentioned above, but it still had stat building, which had to be recognized in marketing. If you want, sure, you could say that Diablo similarly has traits that diverge too much from standard RPGs to make it one, but in my opinion it really doesn't.

  15. #295
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serzis View Post
    ... JRPG ...
    I haven't been commenting on JRPGs only Diablo also I said "2 EXAMPLES" as there is tons of ways to actually fullfill the RPG definition, JRPGs got Character Development(not in term of stats) which again includes em in the RPG Genre because you are playing a ROLE(As in ROLEplaying games) which is very similar to ie Sheppard in Mass Effect despite the lack of choices/options etc. But that is again pretty much the only thing that makes JRPGs RPGs, none of the stats, inventory or similar is needed for making a RPG so having em dosen't actually make em RPGs.

    Diablo features 0 roles(except for tank, damagedealer etc but those are not roles in terms of acting, those are functions), Diablo features only generic characters that play no specific roles in the story precisely similar to playing snake or unreal tournament.
    Last edited by jpvg; 23-05-2012 at 11:22.
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  16. #296
    Quote Originally Posted by jpvg View Post
    ...that is again pretty much the only thing that makes JRPGs RPGs...
    Sign... By your Morrowindish definition, is this even a RPG? Noooouuuu! : P



    Added:
    Quote Originally Posted by jpvg View Post
    none of the stats, inventory or similar is needed for making a RPG so having em dosen't actually make em RPGs.
    I would have to disagree in the sense stat building and customized leveling is the basest of all character building. In a sense, it was the first "choice" players were ever asked to make in defining themselves within the role the game provided for them. It provided the necessity of considering who you wanted to be, slowly changing the person throughout the adventure. Along with it came the option to select dialogue. Another choice in how the role was played, even if the end result often didn't change. It separated these certain kind of games from games in which you manipulated the figures to do stuff (like UT), but didn't really make choices in how the role was lived.

    Absolute freedom is a logical continuation of this concept (until you hit sandbox mode), but it's not its foundation. Of course, this whole debate depends on whether you see RPGs as building on the old Role-play Formula, or being a successor to it that -- through perfecting it -- has made its predecessors unworthy of the label.
    Last edited by Serzis; 23-05-2012 at 12:03.

  17. #297
    I think 30 years of RPG'ing in computer gaming is enough to define a computer game RPG as a game where you got a character with stats and skills and so on that you can improve over the course of the game. Then Diablo 1 came and removed all the traditinal story part of RPGs, and replaced it with more clicking action, but it was still considdered an RPG.

    But in my opinion the problem with D3 so called RPG is that your level 30 wizard and my level 30 wizards are exactly identical. You don't have any influence over your character's development in any way. They have stripped down the RPG elements down to the level you see in the new Battlefield games, and I haven't heard anyone call that an RPG yet.
    Last edited by Janlm; 23-05-2012 at 12:22.

  18. #298
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    Well, lets just call Diablo a very archaic RPG then, maybe on the Level with the old Eye of the Beholder games, who where certainly RPG's though not very advanced.

  19. #299
    Major jpvg's Avatar
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    Serzis:
    It's not nice to put words into my mouth. Now, I don't give a flying cupcake about what you think regarding the issue, fact is that it isn't so, as per definition and nothing else. What you actually say or think or do dosen't matter, we know what you're thinking but in the sense of definition it isn't correct. Until you deliver on Wikipedia or similar (I'm open to suggestions), I will simply deduct that you have been influenced too much by marketing to lead a reasonable conversation about it because right now you're simply grasping at straws and trying to equip me with oppinions that I have nothing to do with.

    But there is plenty of other examples of similar issues such as Minecraft & Dear Esther, they are not even games per definition, I'm not kidding, this is pretty obvious once you start working/researching with gamedev/gametheory.
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  20. #300
    Quote Originally Posted by jpvg View Post
    Serzis:
    It's not nice to put words into my mouth. Now, I don't give a flying cupcake about what you think regarding the issue, fact is that it isn't so, as per definition and nothing else. What you actually say or think or do dosen't matter, we know what you're thinking but in the sense of definition it isn't correct. Until you deliver on Wikipedia or similar (I'm open to suggestions), I will simply deduct that you have been influenced too much by marketing to lead a reasonable conversation about it because right now you're simply grasping at straws and trying to equip me with oppinions that I have nothing to do with.

    But there is plenty of other examples of similar issues such as Minecraft & Dear Esther, they are not even games per definition, I'm not kidding, this is pretty obvious once you start working/researching with gamedev/gametheory.
    I'm sorry if I put words in your mouth. Obviously, I took it a little less seriously and perhaps partook in a slightly too none-constructive or perceived ignorant manner. Perhaps I am dealing with a scholar on the subject, since I focused more on "what do we 'call' RPGs" and deconstructing from there, clashing with an academic approach.

    As for sources, I tried to incorporate my interpretation of the wikipedia article and personal experience. It list characteristics as story and setting, exporation and quests, items and inventory, character actions and abilities, experience and levels, combat, and interference and graphics. Personally, I though they corresponded to those things I mentioned two post up, maybe they don't. From my understanding, these hints at definitions could, and has been, applied to a larger scope of games than your Interference/Open world archetype accounted for. Does Diablo fit it? Barely, almost no. The ability to retract skill points obviously speaks against the notion of development and lasting impact on the role played.

    Surely, our minor disagreement regards whether or not the definition is broad or narrow. Persons of deeper understanding obviously tends to narrow it down, as do I when it comes to certain philosophical or legalistic concepts. Since I here favour a semantic "it is what we call it" approach it may very well coincide with what you call marketing, although I somewhat disagree. I personally found it quite interesting when you deconstructed the very meaning of the word 'game' in the last sentence of the post. Obviously, my input sort of centred on the difference between the modern western RPG and the more archaic JRPG, whilst wanting to find an important similarity in how 'experience and leveling' and rudimentary 'character actions' [see link above] is dealt with, maintaining a historical continuity from table top and thus making it acceptable to attach the label RPG to both of them. This had little to do with Diablo really, but mainly with my idea of a broader definition.

    In a sense, the discussion of a clear cut definition becomes quite difficult when we invent sub-labels like tactical, action, japanese, western, RPG elements and MMO. In the mind of the public, the word becomes a vague description for a series of traits [first link], but the word itself can hardly be used on its own in a public setting. If you dabble in GameDev, the definition may be somewhat less abstract. Still, Morrowind is an "action role-playing open world video game" by the standard of wikipedia although it's a perfect example of the defining Influence/Open word you described as emblematic of what RPG is. Dull old FFVII lacks both those features but is simply described as a "role-playing video game."

    Yet again, I am sorry if I display too much ignorance to stimulate constructive conversation. I'm not a full-time gamer anymore and I merely sought to insert a differing opinion, however unprofessional. Better, jpvg?

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