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Thread: "Victis Honor" — Wednesdays, 19:00 CET

  1. #321
    Quote Originally Posted by Axel View Post
    As far as i remember, he was offered to perm prussia and he accepted.
    Yep, you are correct, but we probably still need a sub. Someone always decides not to show up

  2. #322
    Quote Originally Posted by Bixit View Post
    Yep, you are correct, but we probably still need a sub. Someone always decides not to show up
    Yeah, i have no idea if he will show up though.

  3. #323
    up, ip: 84.16.209.92

  4. #324
    MEIOU and Taxes lukew's Avatar
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    Game is up: 84.16.209.92

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  5. #325
    MEIOU and Taxes lukew's Avatar
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    Sorry I won't be here this week, I'm abroad and was going to play via an internet connection but it went down and I haven't had the time to track down a sub (I'm in an internet cafe now and have very little time). Much as I hate it when people don't find themselves a sub I genuinely can't so if you could find me one I'd greatly appreciate it. Thanks.
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  6. #326
    Quote Originally Posted by lukew View Post
    Sorry I won't be here this week, I'm abroad and was going to play via an internet connection but it went down and I haven't had the time to track down a sub (I'm in an internet cafe now and have very little time). Much as I hate it when people don't find themselves a sub I genuinely can't so if you could find me one I'd greatly appreciate it. Thanks.
    Just wonderful when I make devastating diplomatic and tactical decisions concerning Prussia three (+) sessions in a row only to have my plans collapse. Just my luck.
    No matter. Have fun abroad! [Holiday?]
    Last edited by Serzis; 04-06-2012 at 00:15.

  7. #327
    Gameday (2 Hours)

    chat

  8. #328
    game up: 84.16.209.92

  9. #329
    I'm available if a sub is needed.

    skype: stefan.petrovic73

  10. #330
    Major jpvg's Avatar
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    I believe that France is in need of new leadership due to upcoming changes to the rules. France have been running a containment strategy using other states as buffers deliberately. Since the rules will be changed there will be a need for a new leadership that can forge new alliances, I personally would like to wish em good luck.
    Former Games : Revenge of The Habsburgs, Primus Inter Pares II+III, Ex Castris Virtute II, Testing Grounds, Nemesis, Sound of Drums, In Absentia, Fruit I+II, End of Days, Imperium Malleus, Novus Aevum, Vespere Jovis, Pecunia Infinita, Cabal is for Winners, Vacca Polska & Victis Honor.

  11. #331
    Please don't be a leaver...

  12. #332
    Major jpvg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janlm View Post
    Please don't be a leaver...
    Dear Jan, I signed up for a campaign where there was rules implemented to protect people who only wanted to come to peoples aid, those rules are being changed in favor of more aggressive rules and that's okay but I don't have to play under such rules and I signed up for something else, I signed up for a more friendly game where a warleader would be the one who took the losses and those losses would be quite limited due ti e.g. "release nations costs double". Feel free to call me a leaver, atleast I don't break the rules to achieve my will nor do I play smart in a beginning of a campaign and argue against rules that would have fixed this problem nor do I end the game 15 minutes before time during a war leaving a nation in a critical point rather weak for everyone to see and nor do I have doubts about my own rules as a GM.

    There is plenty of mistakes in this session, I'm pretty certain that me leaving for new leadership to take over due to a rulechange that requires new diplomacy for France is not one of em.
    Former Games : Revenge of The Habsburgs, Primus Inter Pares II+III, Ex Castris Virtute II, Testing Grounds, Nemesis, Sound of Drums, In Absentia, Fruit I+II, End of Days, Imperium Malleus, Novus Aevum, Vespere Jovis, Pecunia Infinita, Cabal is for Winners, Vacca Polska & Victis Honor.

  13. #333
    Sometimes Hero Demi Moderator silktrader's Avatar

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    I don't know what happened exactly, although Elcyion gave me his view. I don't want to sound condescending or meddlesome, but I'll encourage you to reconsider nonetheless, JPVG! I put up a "NEED PERM" tag, I would take over France myself if I had time. Good luck folks.

  14. #334
    well jpvg, none of us here are game designers, you can't expect us to make perfect unexploitable rules to begin with. Thats why we have GM's, to make calls when people disagree on what the rules say, or make calls when someone use the rules in a way that was not intented. As far as i see, thats how its done all over in this comunity.

    The rule in question doesn't really mention how to deal with alliances... Now, you have said so yourself, that you exploited the rule to the max, to gain an advantage. This is exactly what you risk when you push the rules in such a way, arguments over them. It turns out that we don't all agree on how to understand these rules, and so the GM must make a call.

    I haven't head if bixit has made a decision either way yet? But when he does I hope everybody can accept the ruling, and move on without ruining the game for everyone else by leaving.


    That said I urge elcyon to try and smoothe things over as well by lowering your demands to something more acceptable. you can always dow him again later if you want. (and asking for release of conquered countries just because its cheaper is kinda lame too )

  15. #335
    Major jpvg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janlm View Post
    The rule in question doesn't really mention how to deal with alliances... Now, you have said so yourself, that you exploited the rule to the max, to gain an advantage. This is exactly what you risk when you push the rules in such a way, arguments over them. It turns out that we don't all agree on how to understand these rules, and so the GM must make a call.
    No Jan, I said I made my strategy based on the fact that I could use that rule to use other nations as buffers without any risk to my own country. That's what the rule says, it is not abuse, it is clever use.

    Quote Originally Posted by silktrader View Post
    I don't know what happened exactly, although Elcyion gave me his view. I don't want to sound condescending or meddlesome, but I'll encourage you to reconsider nonetheless, JPVG! I put up a "NEED PERM" tag, I would take over France myself if I had time. Good luck folks.
    No you don't know what happened exactly. Load up the save, look at it, now look at our rules, Prussia surrenders. I'm on a horse. Russia needs to withdraw from Prussia about a year ago, he refuses, he wipes Prussian troops after surrender, France refuses demands giving Elcyion 104%, Elcyion continue to break rules. I concur entirely that the rule isn't that great in this situation nevertheless they must be obeyed so we all have common grounds to play on, otherwise Karma would be used and that isn't the case. The rule is meant to protect nations that only joins wars to help out although a rule that was meant to settle situation like this was left out (I know, I made this ruleset with Pewt in another campaign).
    Former Games : Revenge of The Habsburgs, Primus Inter Pares II+III, Ex Castris Virtute II, Testing Grounds, Nemesis, Sound of Drums, In Absentia, Fruit I+II, End of Days, Imperium Malleus, Novus Aevum, Vespere Jovis, Pecunia Infinita, Cabal is for Winners, Vacca Polska & Victis Honor.

  16. #336
    Just wondering, would this whole mess have been avoided if jvpg had used the 'alliance CB' rather than been called in, or is the wars merged regardless of method? Been awhile since I used it.

    As in offensive wars, isn't there always a level of trust that must be had in the war leader, a trust that can pay of, or result in a back-stab?

  17. #337
    Major jpvg's Avatar
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    In any case, due to the rule being changed, France needs new diplomacy as I've been using a strategy that only works when that rule is in play. Without it, I would among other things not have given italy to castille in fact castille would have been wiped from the map by 1450, remember that part Jan? You're alive because I decided not to do the elcyion-thing but use that rule to my advantage and use other nations as my buffer.

    So since my gameplan no longer works which is quite honestly fair enough since a new style of play is considered "Abuse" rather then "Innovative" then I no longer wish to play the France that I have build and a new Leadership will be able to do more with my France. It makes perfect sense to withdraw now. It has nothing to do with the actual war last night merely that the strategy that I have employed no longer can be used in this campaign and that pretty much screws up my diplomacy and places France in some calls that I don't want to make including breaking deals, attacking people who have been friendly and I'm not going to do that so therefore I'm resigning.
    Former Games : Revenge of The Habsburgs, Primus Inter Pares II+III, Ex Castris Virtute II, Testing Grounds, Nemesis, Sound of Drums, In Absentia, Fruit I+II, End of Days, Imperium Malleus, Novus Aevum, Vespere Jovis, Pecunia Infinita, Cabal is for Winners, Vacca Polska & Victis Honor.

  18. #338
    Major jpvg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serzis View Post
    Just wondering, would this whole mess have been avoided if jvpg had used the 'alliance CB' rather than been called in, or is the wars merged regardless of method? Been awhile since I used it.

    As in offensive wars, isn't there always a level of trust that must be had in the war leader, a trust that can pay of, or result in a back-stab?
    it would solve half of the problem, the other half that Russia can't actually get to France with Prussia peaced out seems to be entirely overlooked.
    Former Games : Revenge of The Habsburgs, Primus Inter Pares II+III, Ex Castris Virtute II, Testing Grounds, Nemesis, Sound of Drums, In Absentia, Fruit I+II, End of Days, Imperium Malleus, Novus Aevum, Vespere Jovis, Pecunia Infinita, Cabal is for Winners, Vacca Polska & Victis Honor.

  19. #339
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    Quote Originally Posted by jpvg View Post
    it would solve half of the problem, the other half that Russia can't actually get to France with Prussia peaced out seems to be entirely overlooked.
    If I understand the situation correctly he could either just break the Prussian Truce or cut straight through Austria without anyone being able to stop him.
    Also I wanted to make sure that my leaving early and doing very little towards the end of the session is seen for what it is: Real Life > Game, simple as that. What are the Russian demands btw?

  20. #340
    Okay, the issue as far as I am concerned is:


    1. According to the rules, if a 'player' surrenders the enemies have to withdraw and the peacedeal will be enforced. The issue in this case is that this 'player' is the warleader of an alliance. We had a rule before we started concerning situations like this, where we would transfer the warleader to another player. This rule was removed by 'popular' demand though... Either way, it is completly ridicioulus the way it is now, it would open up a way to gang people without risking anything (ie, say if Spain, England, France and Austria dows OE, OE calls in a lot of allies, OE wins, but only Austria surrenders. Austria is the warleader, but the surrender has to be enforced so OE+ can only demand stuff from Austria. England, France and Spain effectively entered an aggressive war without any sort of repercussions.)

    2. If the warleader status were to be transferred to France, and the peace between Russia and Prussia had been enforced, it would leave Russian troops in Prussian territory without MA or other ways to enter it without having serious issues with attrition and replenishment of troops. This is kind of an issue for Russia when still at war with France. Not letting Prussia peace out however, would more or less kill that nation. This is something I don't know how to solve, I can't come up with anything. So how has this been solved in previous games?

    Either way, jpvg hasn't broken any rules, the rules are faulty and I can take the blame for not spending more times on the rules, I should have been able to see how 1. could have been 'abused' at least. This war was fought on the premisses of faulty rules and I don't think it's a good idea to change them right before a peacedeal. So I suggest peacing out according to the rules for this war, and changing the rules after. Neither Elcy nor jpvg will be happy with this, but there is not way to make both of them happy, so I will just go with neither of them.

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