• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

DominusNovus

Field Marshal
86 Badges
Oct 2, 2007
7.802
7.779
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • 500k Club
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Stellaris: Necroids
Title says it all. Curious if there's a gameplay reason why the Kingdom of Navarra isn't De Jure, and just composed of the Duchy of Navarra. It never lasts as an AI kingdom and can't be resurrected once destroyed, either. I've managed to 'shepard' it through some alliances and placing my nephew on the throne, but tending to other people's kingdoms just to keep them from poofing is a pain.
 
Possibly it's because the title would be far too easy to acquire if it were de jure, in comparison to other kingdoms.

Doesn't seem reason enough to me...
 
That and making it would involve making another already small kingdom even smaller and easier to form.

From what I've seen, nobody has been saying that Iberia is particularly easy as a location to play.
 
It might be due to historical reasons. Castile conquered the Navarrese provinces of Viscay, Guipuzcoa and Alava in 1199-1200 (although many Spaniards still believe it was a volontary annexation in spite of the historical documentation that proves otherwise) and in 1512 the rest of the kingdom south of the Pirinees. So in order to reflect this future expansion they might have ignored Navarre as a de jure kingdom. As a Basque I enjoy playing Navarre and I always try to conquer Castile first. Then I appoint Basque nobles as counts, majors etc to spread the Basque culture... it feels so good..... :)
 
Yes, but in history it would go away and pop up again.

I am not sure but it may have vanished the last time when their king became king of France.

If you scroll through the time line you will see it pop in and out all the way up to about 1337, when they have Normandy and some other French county.

I just wish I could find a way to play it early on without getting swallowed by the rest.
 
Yes, but in history it would go away and pop up again.

I am not sure but it may have vanished the last time when their king became king of France.

If you scroll through the time line you will see it pop in and out all the way up to about 1337, when they have Normandy and some other French county.

I just wish I could find a way to play it early on without getting swallowed by the rest.

if you start with them early ( 1066 ), it is much more easy, but you just have to do what Navarra did historically, make intelligent diplomatic movements, take advantage of all your opportunities to gain land through alliances and marriages and to keep Navarra safe from french, muslim or other neighbors' ambitions. Watch carefully what happens around, and make your movement when your enemies are weak. If you are lucky you will gain some provinces from Castile and the catalan counties first. Aragon is always, of course, the first objective.
 
Arrano, your nick looks familiar.... what other sites are you active in?

Arrano, zure ezizena ezaguna egiten zait...Ze beste lekutan zabiltza interneten?

Arrano, tu nick me resulta familiar... En qué otros sitios andas en internet?


/A fellow Basque
 
It might be due to historical reasons. Castile conquered the Navarrese provinces of Viscay, Guipuzcoa and Alava in 1199-1200 (although many Spaniards still believe it was a volontary annexation in spite of the historical documentation that proves otherwise) and in 1512 the rest of the kingdom south of the Pirinees. So in order to reflect this future expansion they might have ignored Navarre as a de jure kingdom. As a Basque I enjoy playing Navarre and I always try to conquer Castile first. Then I appoint Basque nobles as counts, majors etc to spread the Basque culture... it feels so good..... :)

The Lords of Viscay were vassals of Leon and then Castille far before that "conquest" during 1199, although sometimes they were sometimes vassals of Navarre also.
 
I think there's a general desire among the mods not to have Kingdoms that are too small, regardless of location. That's why we have Brythonia.

Small? I just checked - at biggest extent, in 1035, it had about 60000 km², more than for example Denmark. At the same county density as - for example - England, that would be 15+ counties, so 3-4 duchies.
 
From what I've seen, nobody has been saying that Iberia is particularly easy as a location to play.

Iberia is actually one of the easiest places to play depending on which nation you pick and how you play.

As any of the kings you have 3 allies who will go to war for you constantly (if you declare and invite them often enough to prevent them from fighting each other) Combined with a marriage alliance to france or hre and you can pubstomp Iberia.
 
Small? I just checked - at biggest extent, in 1035, it had about 60000 km², more than for example Denmark. At the same county density as - for example - England, that would be 15+ counties, so 3-4 duchies.

Yea, I meant small in terms of counties, not actual physical area - that's not really related to anything in terms of gameplay (except movement speed I guess)
 
Yea, I meant small in terms of counties, not actual physical area - that's not really related to anything in terms of gameplay (except movement speed I guess)

The current CK2 map has roughly nine provinces in this area, actually - Valladolid, Burgos, Soria, Viscaya, Navarra, Dax, Bearn and two others I can't remember. Of those, three (Burgos, Valladolid and one other) go to the newly created Kingdom of Castille in 1065, and one (about where the game has Bearn, really ...) to the new Kingdom of Aragon.

If anything, I think a separate Kingdom of Castille is useless and could be cut from the game - for most of the time frame, it was in personal union with Kingdom of Leon anyway.
 
I am not sure but it may have vanished the last time when their king became king of France.

I wouldn't say vanished, I think the King of France was king of both realms until the revolution. So, thats an extra few centuries right there.
 
It's not recreateable because it's too small. Land area isn't relevant here, what's relevant is that it's two provinces. Two provinces is just too small to be a de jure Kingdom, even if you existed historically. That's why Bulgaria (8 historic provinces) includes Wallachia and Moldovia to get it to 18, and Wales (6) was replaced with Brythonia (14 provinces in-game).

The ideas on this thread wouldn't help at all because at most they bring Navarra up to 9, which would reduce Castille to 5, and Aragon to 12. The minimum number of provinces in a kingdom is apparently 10, and the only land the King of Aragon actually owns in 1066 is in our expanded Navarra, so basically to improve Navarra we've abolished Castille and rendered Aragon unrecognizeable.

In other words once the devs made the design-decision to have de jure Kingdoms, and give them all meaningful sizes, it was guaranteed some poor powerful Iberian realm was gonna be left out. And once we have a 1066 start-date that left-out dude has to be the smallest, and least able to conquer Muslims: Navarra. It's surprising they found room for Portugal, Leon, Castille, Aragon and Al-Andulus.

The only kingdoms smaller then 10 on-map are Serbia and Bohemia. Bohemia could probably be expanded to include Silesia without breaking gameplay too much, but then it would be bigger then Poland (13 provs vs. 12). Serbia can't really be titular for reasons both political and practical (you need it to be there to simulate Balkan Balkanization properly). It could probably be expanded to include Wallachia, but that only gets it to 10, and if it's a big stretch to put Wallachia (aka: another way to spell Vlach-ia) into Bulgaria it's an even bigger stretch to put it in Serbia.

BTW, in early versions CK1 Navarra was createable and two provinces. this was fixed (before DV IIRC) largely because the devs decided it was too easy to become King of the tiny Kingdom.

Nick
 
It's not recreateable because it's too small. Land area isn't relevant here, what's relevant is that it's two provinces. Two provinces is just too small to be a de jure Kingdom, even if you existed historically. That's why Bulgaria (8 historic provinces) includes Wallachia and Moldovia to get it to 18, and Wales (6) was replaced with Brythonia (14 provinces in-game).

The ideas on this thread wouldn't help at all because at most they bring Navarra up to 9, which would reduce Castille to 5, and Aragon to 12. The minimum number of provinces in a kingdom is apparently 10, and the only land the King of Aragon actually owns in 1066 is in our expanded Navarra, so basically to improve Navarra we've abolished Castille and rendered Aragon unrecognizeable.

In other words once the devs made the design-decision to have de jure Kingdoms, and give them all meaningful sizes, it was guaranteed some poor powerful Iberian realm was gonna be left out. And once we have a 1066 start-date that left-out dude has to be the smallest, and least able to conquer Muslims: Navarra. It's surprising they found room for Portugal, Leon, Castille, Aragon and Al-Andulus.

The only kingdoms smaller then 10 on-map are Serbia and Bohemia. Bohemia could probably be expanded to include Silesia without breaking gameplay too much, but then it would be bigger then Poland (13 provs vs. 12). Serbia can't really be titular for reasons both political and practical (you need it to be there to simulate Balkan Balkanization properly). It could probably be expanded to include Wallachia, but that only gets it to 10, and if it's a big stretch to put Wallachia (aka: another way to spell Vlach-ia) into Bulgaria it's an even bigger stretch to put it in Serbia.

BTW, in early versions CK1 Navarra was createable and two provinces. this was fixed (before DV IIRC) largely because the devs decided it was too easy to become King of the tiny Kingdom.

Nick
I pretty much believe you nailed the problem on the head here.

This is a situation were a few of the Iberian christian kingdoms was going to be left out and sadly Navarra makes pretty good sense to be the one with out a de-jur chair at the Iberian king party. don't forget it is not the only titular kingdom in Iberia. Their is galicia at the start as well which is a titular title and it has the same problems as Navarra from a game play perspective. Be lucky the bothered to make titular titles for them. The Developers could of just left the regions as dukes and said why bother at least they tried in this instance.