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Thread: Why sometimes the German AI declares war to Czecoslovakia soon after the UK proclaims

  1. #1
    General peterhoi3's Avatar
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    Why sometimes the German AI declares war to Czecoslovakia soon after the UK proclaims

    Why sometimes the German AI declares war to Czecoslovakia soon after the UK proclaims the independende of Poland
    without waiting to the first Vienna award for annexation? I have tried to prevent this by modifting the lua file
    of Germany but it still happens. Is is hard coded? And if so, is the purpose of this to give some variation and
    unexpected twists to the game? In my games it happens very often, in fact it is what happens most.

  2. #2
    are you sure it does happen in a unmodded game? i have never seen or heard of it before.

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    General peterhoi3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by comsubpac View Post
    are you sure it does happen in a unmodded game? i have never seen or heard of it before.
    It certainly happens in a modded game, if you consider modded the changes I am making in the production of Germany to optimize its development. Maybe the German AI finds itself stronger and decides to attack... But I have written a line of code in its file preventing it from declaring war to Czecoslovakia and it still happens.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by peterhoi3 View Post
    It certainly happens in a modded game, if you consider modded the changes I am making in the production of Germany to optimize its development. Maybe the German AI finds itself stronger and decides to attack... But I have written a line of code in its file preventing it from declaring war to Czecoslovakia and it still happens.
    then whatever you did it did break something. as far as i know it normally doesn't happen and shouldn't have something todo with strength. the AI doesn't declare war on its own anymore since hoi 1.3 or something like that. at least the event is written in a way that ensures a historical outcome every time it triggers. maybe you did something that caused weird things to threat and neutrality though.
    the balance of the game is very fragile and did require much much work. what you are calling errors in the lua files are mostly intended. simply letting everyone build big navies with hundreds of carriers or tank only armies is maybe interesting from a certain point of view but it is not intended that way.
    Last edited by comsubpac; 27-03-2012 at 18:38.

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    General peterhoi3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by comsubpac View Post
    then whatever you did it did break something. as far as i know it normally doesn't happen and shouldn't have something todo with strength. the AI doesn't declare war on its own anymore since hoi 1.3 or something like that. at least the event is written in a way that ensures a historical outcome every time it triggers. maybe you did something that caused weird things to threat and neutrality though.
    the balance of the game is very fragile and did require much much work. what you are calling errors in the lua files are mostly intended. simply letting everyone build big navies with hundreds of carriers or tank only armies is maybe interesting from a certain point of view but it is not intended that way.
    My changes are much more subtle than what you describe and produce a much better gameplay. And I have not said anywhere that there are errors in the lua files. They are however written in an artificial and unnatural way that prevents the amazing AI to show its true potential. That's the reason for which most people is complaining that the AI Germany is sitting idle, always in prepare stance and doing absolutely nothing in most cases. How many times have you seen the German AI really defeating the USA to the point of surrender? It is a possible outcome but it never ever happens. And for me that proves that something is wrong with the game. It's like if you throw a dice but never get an odd number, something is wrong with the dice. After studying the AI for a long time I have the impression that first was the AI and then the game. When you see the real AI in action it is simply amazing, there is a lot of talent involved in it, I consider the AI in this game a huge intelectual achievement. But the lua files appear to have been written over the AI, to forcefully produce some kind of historical scheme. And in doing so not too well the game has lost a lot of the bright it was conceived with. Have you read the Soviet lua files? They are simply absurd. The worst is that they appear to be intentionally absurd. That's the kind of thing I am working on at the moment. I have made a first version of the German AI by simply modifying the production file and the same with the japanese and italian files, which needed less work, and the result is amazing. Germany now attacks, which is what people want to see and play with. Playing the USA in very hard was ridiculously easy, now it is insanely difficult. And in hard level it is really really hard. Now the German AI invades the UK quite often, uses strategic bombers to attack and sometimes even invades the USA with land forces and delivers nuclear bombs in US cities if they are in target of its bombers. Have you ever seen that in the 3.05 release of FTM? It is fun, it is fantastic, and it was there, but it was hidden.

    And yes, I understand that doing these improvements the balance of the game can be altered and produce unexpected results, but I guess there is a solution for everything.
    Last edited by peterhoi3; 27-03-2012 at 20:23.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by peterhoi3 View Post
    How many times have you seen the German AI really defeating the USA to the point of surrender? It is a possible outcome but it never ever happens. And for me that proves that something is wrong with the game. It's like if you throw a dice but never get an odd number, something is wrong with the dice.
    How many times you played lottery and won a multimillion jackpot? Or how many people out of 7 billion can become Bill Gates?

    The point is, that a chance to defeat the USA into submission by Germany was the same as winning the jackpot

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by peterhoi3 View Post
    Now the German AI invades the UK quite often, uses strategic bombers to attack and sometimes even invades the USA with land forces and delivers nuclear bombs in US cities if they are in target of its bombers. Have you ever seen that in the 3.05 release of FTM? It is fun, it is fantastic, and it was there, but it was hidden.
    It just shows that American and British AI is overshadowed by German AI. So you created a dis-balance.

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    General peterhoi3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mnplastic View Post
    How many times you played lottery and won a multimillion jackpot? Or how many people out of 7 billion can become Bill Gates?

    The point is, that a chance to defeat the USA into submission by Germany was the same as winning the jackpot
    Sure, but this is not history. Many things happen in game that were totally impossible in real life. This is a game,
    and what's the fun of playing a game you know you will always win? When you play as USA in MP you know that you can loose,
    that's precisely what makes it exciting. Why wouldn't it be the same playing the AI, that uses exactly the same game
    resources a human does?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mnplastic View Post
    It just shows that American and British AI is overshadowed by German AI. So you created a dis-balance.
    It is not a disbalance, it is a rebalance. I have made countless tests and the chances for the axis or allies AI's to win with my changes are now very similar.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by peterhoi3 View Post
    Sure, but this is not history. Many things happen in game that were totally impossible in real life. This is a game,
    and what's the fun of playing a game you know you will always win? When you play as USA in MP you know that you can loose,
    that's precisely what makes it exciting. Why wouldn't it be the same playing the AI, that uses exactly the same game
    resources a human does?
    But then you shouldn't ask why Germany invades Czecoslovakia The question could be why it doesn't invade Italy.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by peterhoi3 View Post
    It is not a disbalance, it is a rebalance. I have made countless tests and the chances for the axis or allies AI's to win with my changes are now very similar.
    You gave VW Beetle to defeat Ferrari equal chance. Is it balance?

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by peterhoi3 View Post
    When you play as USA in MP you know that you can loose, that's precisely what makes it exciting.
    BTW, I have a question. Have you ever seen MP Player surrendering to German player? So far I am yet to see an invasion. In MP the USA lose due to points but not due to German or Japan invasion. However, maybe I am wrong. It would be interesting to know.

  13. #13
    General peterhoi3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mnplastic View Post
    You gave VW Beetle to defeat Ferrari equal chance. Is it balance?
    I appreciate your attempts to turn my ideas down!
    They give me the opportunity to polish them.
    I am happy that some others like them.

    Don't worry for the Czecoslovakia issue, there will be a solution.

    Concerning your comparisons involving cars I will not enter into that type of discussions!

  14. #14
    Sorry, peterhoi3, I didn't mean to turn your ideas down.

    They are interesting. However, they create not necessary better game but different it is for sure which I again doesn't mean worse.

    There are reasons why current AI is this way. In some way you are no less criticising the creators of current LUA

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    General peterhoi3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mnplastic View Post
    Sorry, peterhoi3, I didn't mean to turn your ideas down.

    They are interesting. However, they create not necessary better game but different it is for sure which I again doesn't mean worse.

    There are reasons why current AI is this way. In some way you are no less criticising the creators of current LUA
    I know there are reasons why the lua files are created like that, if you read my writings about the issue you will see
    that I know it. As a player I want a game that is really exciting to play, and not the same easy boredom,
    build up your army, land in Europe and win. I believe the game is really much better and has much more potential than the lua files
    presently permit, though willingly so designed. I always suspected it but now I know it.
    I have found some of the changes to uncover that potential and I am working on others.
    And the potential of a game is to be exciting and fun, not
    to recreate history. I don´t care if Germany had no chance against the allies when I play
    Hoi3, as I don´t care if the christian kings had no chance if I play Crusader Kings.

    By the way I am working on a solution to the Czecoslovakia issue, hope to find one
    sooner or later.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by peterhoi3 View Post
    By the way I am working on a solution to the Czecoslovakia issue, hope to find one
    sooner or later.
    I suggest asking in MOD forum especially in lua section.

    The thing is if you want to escape history you should make randomness and this is why I have mentioned Italy. As a player I have attacked Italy with Germany. Why not? Does your AI can do it? Or Turkey invading Greece? Why German AI doesn't try to overthrow Czech government or Poland doesn't join the Axis? Invading or annexing Czechoslovakia is something you see in every game.

  17. #17
    General peterhoi3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mnplastic View Post
    I suggest asking in MOD forum especially in lua section.

    The thing is if you want to escape history you should make randomness and this is why I have mentioned Italy. As a player I have attacked Italy with Germany. Why not? Does your AI can do it? Or Turkey invading Greece? Why German AI doesn't try to overthrow Czech government or Poland doesn't join the Axis? Invading or annexing Czechoslovakia is something you see in every game.
    I am on it, I am sure it is not a big problem.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by peterhoi3 View Post
    I am on it, I am sure it is not a big problem.
    When you think about excitement you shouldn't really know much who and when attacks.

    As a player knows a scenario he can prepare for a war even in an illogical way as disbanding a whole army and when rebuilding in 1939. Or keeping 0 units on the USSR border while invading France.Or building only industry or forts instead of militarising. AI will never attack even if it knows you have no army at all. If AI can attack you any time then you can not really play this way.

  19. #19
    Probably been said many times, but the idea that this game accurately represents a historically balanced situation is, I think, not very realistic. I don't believe Germany had any real chance in ww2 the way it played out (ie Germany Italy and Japan vs the UK Soviets and the US). So tweaking the game in any effort to get both sides capable of a win isn't exactly less historical than the unmodded game anyways... Go for it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peterhoi3 View Post
    My changes are much more subtle than what you describe and produce a much better gameplay. And I have not said anywhere that there are errors in the lua files. They are however written in an artificial and unnatural way that prevents the amazing AI to show its true potential.
    You don't have to be that generous, there *are* outright problems with the LUA files. In particular all you need to do is look at the diplomacy files. Numerous countries have situational or permanent modifiers designed to make it `harder` for them to join a faction; however, the base diplomacy system is set up in such a way that these countries will never join a faction anyway so the special modifiers are completely moot (in particular: Belgium, Holland, & Sweden). I would be willing to bet that this isn't the only area where contradictory information is present in the files, which is a natural consequence of them being patched and re-patched. I think the point is getting near where they need to be rebuilt from scratch, and most successful mods seem to be doing just that.

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