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Thread: Idea: Terrain + Climate

  1. #1

    Idea: Terrain + Climate

    So I got thinking after a few showers and I came up with a little idea that I thought I would share, enjoy.

    Terrain
    -------

    At the start of a match terrain type is randomized. There are 4 Terrain types. Plains, Hills, Urban, Forest. Terrain is used to decide if a unit is either "Effective" or "Weak". When an "Effective" unit meets a "Weak" unit, the damage the Effective unit does vs the weak unit is increased by 1 step. (1 step meaning : Pin = Damage ; Damage = Kill ; Kill = Kill + NA)

    Terrain type has less use on aircraft, however they will be more effected by something else, Weather/Climate.

    The Terrain type can only be changed once per round if someone has scored VP, it also costs 1 VP to change it. Once terrain has been changed someone must score VP again before it can change again You cannot put the same terrain type down that is the same as the one already on the board. Generally speaking the person who moves first can alter the Terrain first to block his opponent from changing the terrain or climate for the round.

    EX:
    Infantry
    Cost: 1 Weap
    Faction: All
    |-| |-| |+|
    Effective : -
    Weak : Plains

    VS

    MG 34
    Cost: 2 Weap
    Faction: Axis
    |-| |pin *inf| |+|
    Effective : Plains
    Weak: Urban

    In this case, MG34's gain a one step strength bonus if the Terrian type is Plains if he is fighting infantry, so that pin infantry now becomes damage infantry, while the damage at close range becomes a kill. However the strength boost is only vs weak units so if your in plains and do a damage token, if your opponet puts that damage token on a infantry it will die, but if it puts it on something that isnt Weak in plains, it will do normal damage.

    Some units can have multiple "Effective" Terrians, or even multiple "Weak" ones as well, or have neither at all.

    EX:

    Partisans
    Cost: 3 Weap
    Faction: Comminterm
    |Pin *| |+ *| |-|
    Effective : Forest ; Urban
    Weak: Plains

    VS

    Tiger
    Cost: 4 Gears
    Faction: Axis
    |-| |Kill| |-|
    Effective: -
    Weak: Urban ; Hills

    So in this case, if the Partisans were to face a Tiger tank in Urban it will have the upper edge as it can place a kill token on the tiger at battle range, but in the other terrain types it will still struggle.

    One of the nice side effects of this system is that elite units can now properly be different then their normal versions. Basically elite units can have fewer weaknesses or more Effective terrains compared to their normal counter parts making them more useful, at the cost of having the elite status of course.

    EX

    T-70
    Cost: 2 Gears
    Faction: Comminterm
    |-| |+| |-|
    Effective : Plains
    Weak : Urban ; Hill

    VS

    Guards T-70
    Cost: 2 Gears
    Faction: Comminterm
    |-| |+| |-|
    Effective : Plains
    Weak : Urban

    Some other examples that Terrain type can make even the most useless unit effective!

    Krads
    Cost: 2 Weap
    Faction: Axis
    |swap| |-| |+|
    Effective: -
    Weak: Forest


    Calvary
    Cost: 2 Weap
    Faction : Comminterm
    |-| |-| |+|
    Effective: Plains
    Weak: Plains

    (Unlike the Normal T-34 variant the Guards version gets an extra Effective for Forest.)
    T-34 Guards
    Cost: 3 Gear
    Faction: Comminterm
    |-| |kill tank / +| |-|
    Effective: Plains ; Forest
    Weak: Urban ; Hill


    2 Pound AT-gun
    Cost: 1 Weap
    Faction: Allied
    |-| |+ Tank| |-|
    Effective: Urban
    Weak: -

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    ================================================== =====================

    Weather/Climate
    -------

    At the start of a match, Climate always starts on Clear. There are 5 types of Climates. Rainy, Cold, Desert, Muddy, Clear. Climates unlike Terrain add unique effects to the battle. Climates can only be changed once per round as long as someone scored VP and requires 1 VP to do so. Once terrain has been changed someone must score VP again before it can change again If you change the climate it stops the other player from changing the climate or terrain type for that round. You cannot change the climate to something that is already on the board.

    Climates have a larger effect on Aircraft over land units.

    Clear
    -----
    This Climate card removes the Climate effect from the battle

    Rain
    -----
    Only 1 Air doctrine can be used during the combat phase for each side. Units weak to rain receive one step of extra damage

    EX:

    Fairey Battle
    Cost: 1 Air
    Faction : Allies
    |-| |+| |-|
    Effective: Plains
    Weak: Rain ; Snow


    Muddy
    -----
    Only 1 Ground doctrine can be used during the combat phase for each side.

    Snow
    -----
    Units that are damaged during the draw phase are now killed. Units weak to Snow receive one step of extra damage

    EX:

    Stuka
    Cost: 3 Air
    Faction : Axis
    |-| |Kill ground| |-|
    Effective: -
    Weak: Snow

    Desert
    ------
    Units that are pinned during the draw phase are now damaged.

    ----------------

    Other examples of air units

    (Normal yaks are similar, but they are weak to rain and are missing the effective Forest)
    Yak-Guards
    Cost: 2 Air
    Faction : Comminterm
    |-| |Kill air| |+|
    Effective: Plains ; Forest
    Weak: -


    HS-123
    Cost: 3 Air
    Faction: Axis
    |-| |+ Ground| |-|
    Effective: Forest ; Hills
    Weak: Rain ; Snow

    B-17
    Cost: 4 Air
    Faction: Allied
    |-| |2x + Ground| |+|
    Effective: Urban
    Weak: -

    ME-109
    Cost: 2 Air
    Faction: Axis
    |-| |Kill air| |+|
    Effective: Plains ; Hills
    Weak: Snow

    -----------------

    Just for the Kicks
    ------------------

    Matilda
    Cost: 3 Gears
    Faction: Allies
    |-| |+ Tank| |-|
    Effective: Forest ; Plains
    Weak: Urban

    Just ME it, + enough Daimler and enough Terrain cards to keep it Plains/Forest and your set, no tank can then match the mighty Matilda!

    PS: This solves the strat bomb rush issue. since if you start with strat bombing you cant score VP to change to climate, and you can be sure your opponent will set it to rain to limit the number of air docs you can use.
    Last edited by nymet260; 26-03-2012 at 03:51.
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  2. #2
    First Lieutenant

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    One does not simply place a damage token on a used Tiger . So Partisan is still powerless against Tiger .

    By the way ,Tiger should have advantage on plain like giving it a kill of choice .

    Not to make you sad , but I think Panther alone is better than Matilda in any terrain .
    Last edited by MeinKrieg; 26-03-2012 at 08:17.

  3. #3
    Lt. General nachopontmercy's Avatar
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    I like the idea,itīs just like in campaign game. I havenīt deeply readed it, but those kind of things always add flavour to this game.

  4. #4
    some time ago i talked with tobias how cool it would be to have the terrain and weather effects in the game like in the campaign.

    Ur idea is a 2 edged sword for me.
    The changing terrain kinda simulates the ongoing fight, but it also makes the game so much more complex especially for a newcomer and we all know they already struggle alot early on.
    So if at all, it needs a seperate gamemode to leave the standart casual to learn about the game.

    I like the effectivness/weak part of the idea, needs alot of balancing etc but could be realy intresting. What i dont like is the changing terrain.
    Give it some Random and/or choosen weather/terrain at the beginning of a game, so u can choose/build decks for diffrent situations.
    If the terrain/weather can change so many times, im afraid there wouldnt be much diffrence with the decks as everyone could just try to keep the terrain he likes.

  5. #5
    First Lieutenant

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    I suggest random terrain and weather at the start of round . Then the game will change weather/terrain every 15 turns . This might turn an unavoidable defeat into victory .

    Now we can have nasty Soviet winter waiting to stop angry Panzer division rushing toward Moskva .

  6. #6
    You can only change either terrain or climate once per round as long as someone has score VP. After that nobody can change terrain until someone scores VP again. It also costs 1 VP to change.

    Basically rush decks can limit the number of changes, as long as they take the time to deny their opponent VP, they can practically control the battlefield. a quick turn 2/3 0VP vs 6 VP setup goes up, that turn the rush deck can change to a more practical terrain type (starting terrain type is already random) or ideal climate and as long as they defend 100% of the time the terrain type wont change again since someone must score VP to change it again at that point. end result... only 1 terrain change the entire match and maybe 1 climate change.

    not to mention changing terrain is a double edged sword, as the battle progresses it can turn against you if all you draw is weak cards vs XXX terrain type + if your using a 2VP docs, if you change terrain or climate twice means you must attack an extra time to knock your opponent out unless your German with prop machine. If anything you will see more defending when normally it would not be necessary to keep terrain ideal for yourself.

    If your using a 3 VP doc you only get 2 chances to change the terrain/climate, with a 2 VP doc you only get 2 chances before you have to attack an extra time to win the game.
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  7. #7
    result: inf decks become even more dominant as they can now also controll the terrain/climate.

    i would enjoy it much more if at the beginning both player could select a terrain, if both choose the same, thats comming, if diffrent a random terrain is selected. (same for weather)
    without the option to change it. And deck choice after the terrain/climate is selected.
    This would also make it intresting to use that gamemode in the campaign as both sides could select the terrain that the battle is supposed to be played on.

    For me it would be more intresting to try diffrent builds that way, while a option to change it would make building a deck for a certain option much harder, especially since Inf decks possibly controll the terrain most of the time.

  8. #8
    I'm not sure how much this adds in respect to strategy VS randomness. It would be difficult to build a deck around a terrain or climate type, so really you'd just be adding random strengths and weaknesses to the cards you draw. Being able to change the climate wouldn't necessarily help either, since you might change the weather or climate to suit what you currently have on the board only to draw a slew of cards that are hurt by your decision.

    And like Narfi said, I see this only strengthening the inf probe decks, as they are quick and would be able to control the weather (a strange concept in itself) while most likely not being overtly effected by it.

  9. #9
    Nothing wrong with that I suppose narfi.

    And tvremote,ofc an idea to better transition terrain or weather is needed XD though I suppose for weather it could change randomly after x turns after meinkrieg suggested. though could add an HQ card such as weather forecasting or something so that when the weather change occurs you can choose out of 3 types at random of which weather the next should be.

    Then again its not just weather but climates such as deserts so that kind of HQ makes it seem werid. cant make desert a terrain type really as there were mountains, hills open plains and urban cities within the desert ala north africa
    Last edited by nymet260; 26-03-2012 at 21:38.
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  10. #10
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    I dont get why an mg unit is weak in urban terretory. Wasnt it that mgs really were the best defense in urban?

    Anyway the pin of the mg is why it is the most used card, so it should be rather pin of choice or even dmg of choice in urban/plains.

    mg should rather be weak in forest and effective in urban and plains maybe even on hills. but should only be able to hit infantry.

    Make it:
    when effective kills inf but duals only get dmg (such as panzergrens, due to armor platings and cover)

  11. #11
    MG's are too heavy and cumbersome for the quick pace door to door of close range urban combat. Units such as elite infantry + SMG infantry benefit from this type of combat. In the open plains there is next to no cover for infantry so your going to get mowed down to pieces my machine gun fire.

    PG's wouldnt be weak in plains, but probably forests so no need for it.

    EDIT: its only a step up of damage, you can still attach the pin inf to a non weak plains infantry ala Krads for example.
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  12. #12
    i think spanns concerns about the MGs is probably more about the stacking effects in battlephase where the pin inf is required to keep the stacking working together with a dmg and a kill/2 kills.
    But a Pin of choice wouldnt help on that part either
    anyway i dont think that would be an issue, only leads to diffrent builds, which is fine


    Point about the random at the beginning of the match BEFOR a deck is choosen, is that a player that plays this gamemode should have multiple decks prepared for diffrent terrain/climate and thus would be able to choose the deck that should be working best on whatever terrain/climate there is. (and thats why i dont like the changing terrain/climate)
    Ofcourse thats personal opinion, im sure some would love the changing terrain/climate, though probably with a diffrent system.

  13. #13
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    No i was thinking about Kill+dmg+pin which totally prevents any close combat. while changing it to kill+dmg+dmg or even worse dmg+dmg+dmg wouldnt.

    Just about that. well pin of choice would help in a way as you can decide on which card getting killed

    Example:
    Wespe+pzgren+mg vs militia+ zis+ mg

    normally the other one choses which to kill or dmg. depending on strategy either kills militia or zis.

    if you get to chose due to urban or plains effect u can do the exact opposite thing by chosing. thus getting the enemy into a bad situation.

  14. #14
    while the MGs might be stronger or weaker, in return u might have the PGs weakened to a pin to get ur stacking back. U would just need to adjust to the terrain,m nothing wrong with that

    and a pin of choice in ur scenario wouldnt change anything since u choose to pin something first and then ur opponent can assign dmg and kill. in the end he can keep 1 unit untouched cuz of ur pin of choice and then damage the unit u decided to pin.

  15. #15
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    needs to be changed then...
    pin of coice means cant be dmg or killed same round, would be best

  16. #16
    nah not realy.
    *of choice shouldnt be more powerful as it already is,

  17. #17
    Well first of all spann in that situation id just go close range with the PG to do the double kill

    In the event of a inf support air/tank, a double mg = a dead inf (This is useful vs annoy inf such as partisans or engys/SMG) ; if its inf inf + support a double machine gun + battle kill unit means the other guy has to sacrifice 2 inf to spare the support, or give up the support for 2 damaged inf.

    So I dunno about you but id rather have the shot at 2 dead units or 2 damaged units or kill off annoying units over just pinning 2/1 guy. And like narfi said, just change the terrain, it only happens on one type vs most inf types.
    Last edited by nymet260; 27-03-2012 at 02:02.
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  18. #18
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    I support at least a weather element. It might be that every round will be a certain season. And this season would determine e.g. more chance for rain or clear, or whatever. But the game is quite complex already. If there would be weather it must be based on an extremely simple system.
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  19. #19
    personally I think the game isn't complex enough, but nevertheless not a bad idea but that might be taking it too far.

    Also just thought of something which compliments the terrain/climate system.

    George Patton
    Cost: 4 Gears
    | * | | | | |
    **Swap with tank unit and unpin current doctrine**
    Tank General : As long as general remains in battle and is not killed, tank units also in same battle have their weaknesses ignored. If on terrain that a tank unit is not weak to, increase damage by one step.

    Basically what that means is if I play Stuart, Patton, and Mech inf, and I dont swap patton out, my stuart and mech inf ignores all their weaknesses and if we are on terrain they are not weak to they are 1 step stronger even if its not their effective terrain vs an enemy weak unit. If it is however it gets a double step up! So even if I dont have any tank units to swap in I can just keep Patton in, and he will power up any other corresponding units if they are the right type.

    More or less, Patton with this trait can make Churchills into tigers! As long as your on decent or good terrain for Churchills ofc

    Another example

    Georgy Zhukov
    Cost: 2 weap 2 gear
    | * | | | | |
    **Swap with any unit and unpin it**
    Defensive General: As long as general remains in battle and is not killed, when you are defending, you may choose 1 weakness type and apply it to all enemy units in battle OR 1 an effective type and apply it to all friendly units. This effect ends once battle is over.
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  20. #20
    all honor to ur ideas, but a crucial part would be, how u wanna display all that on the cards?
    How u wanna ensure a newcomer does understand all that without forcing them to check the forum?

    (forum guides etc are good, but good games should deliver informations about all core mechanics through the game)

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