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Thread: 1 swing-multiple hits?

  1. #21
    Lt. General Beowulf1990's Avatar
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    mmm, that is actually quite a good point Salahudin.
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  2. #22
    Field Marshal reis91's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salahudin View Post
    It just seems like a really awkward way to design your game.
    Why not just limit it to hitting the first thing you hit? If you hit a shield, you have to hit again. If you hit flesh, you do damage, and the first thing in your swing arch takes damage based on when in the swing animation you hit them and how far you charged up.
    It really is a simple formula.
    So, there's no reward in, for instance, grabbing a claymore and hitting two players with a side swing, at the same time. For instance

    ....Player 1.Player 2...
    Player 3------- (<- player 3's sword, moving against both player 1 and 2 and cutting both)

    In your idea, hitting the arm of player 2 would prevent player 1 from getting any damage, even though you just slashed him with a sword. Definitely immersion breaker. This also means that 4 guys can overwhelm a knight just by charging at him, because he can only hit one of them regardless of skill and weapon quality.

    Not only it is immersion-breaking, but it also hurts gameplay, because the game devolves into a series of 1 on 1 battles, because you can only strike against a guy at one time.

    It is harder to implement than the system above, which Warband uses, but it adds up to better gameplay if implemented properly. Best way would be an actual physics engine that could deal with momentum for each impact. but that can be painful, especially for small developer teams. A compromise is to make it dependent on speeds of both you and the target, armor, weapon, and gravity, and place a constant for each body part (so that it is easier to penetrate through the neck than through the ribs).
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salahudin View Post
    I still don't understand why any developer would make 'magic' slashes through stuff. Its not about realism.. its about gameplay. Can you imagine hitting through an enemy that you and a teammate are trying to kill, killing him and then having your swing go on to do friendly fire to your friend?

    Can you imagine how ANNOYING it would be to have your lances go through an enemy, kill them, and pierce through a friendly while you're charging in on a horse?
    Well, it's really an issue of player skill and player feedback. Players have to be careful in how they swing their weapons, especially around allies. That's what teamplay melee is all about. They will also get feedback and consistency in how the swings work so that they actually can take such things into account and make informed decisions.

    How would someone block against a 'magic' swing? Naturally, if there is someone in the way of an enemy's attack, I'd think, "its fine, the friendly will either block it or take the hit. In both cases I'm fine", but then on goes the swing and I'm hit, even though I probably didn't have clear vision on where the attack was coming from.
    Like I wrote, a blocked swing is blocked and will always be stopped. It's wounding unblocked swings that continue through. If the swing is deflected off a shield, off armour or parried it will not be able to wound anybody further.

    Hell, why not just make bolts and arrows go through several targets too =s
    Truly, I am disappoint.
    Well, it would be pretty cool to be able to nail somebody to a wall with a killing bolt from an arbalest

    And from what I've heard, a longbow arrow shot at point blank range WOULD actually pass straight through a person and hit whatever is behind...

  4. #24
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    Not a fan. It'll be confusing as hell and I imagine dying to a hit that went straight through your teammate will be enraging. Though that is what beta is for, you'll hear about it then!

  5. #25
    Field Marshal reis91's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scullyy View Post
    Not a fan. It'll be confusing as hell and I imagine dying to a hit that went straight through your teammate will be enraging. Though that is what beta is for, you'll hear about it then!
    Blame your teammate for not blocking, or yourself for assuming he will and not blocking yourself.
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  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Robin. View Post
    Players have to be careful in how they swing their weapons, especially around allies. That's what teamplay melee is all about.
    I hate to keep comparing the two (but I will) 'if warband is any indication' People will just swing into groups of their teammates. Then, maybe, say sorry later. They typically donít care that youíre nearby/in the way. The exception, of course, are the smaller amounts of more 'serious' players. But from what I've seen, while they do weigh the odds before swinging, they will also quite often take the chance on taking out the enemy as opposed to potentially not hurting their teammate. I don't see it forcing people to watch their swings anymore then they would normally.

    Well, it would be pretty cool to be able to nail somebody to a wall with a killing bolt from an arbalest
    Yes it would, add siege weapons.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by reis91 View Post
    Blame your teammate for not blocking, or yourself for assuming he will and not blocking yourself.
    No I think I'll blame the mechanic and then try to have it removed by writing angry letters.

    Multiple hits will also encourage players to jump into a group of enemies and just spam.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Scullyy View Post
    Multiple hits will also encourage players to jump into a group of enemies and just spam.
    Quote Originally Posted by Robin. View Post
    Therefore, we've chosen to, as you've probably seen in the gameplay footage shown, allow swings that do damage to pass through enemies and actually damage several enemies in one swing. Every additional hit does less damage with diminishing returns, but exactly how much depends on factors like weapon attachments and the like (being able to sacrifice strength in one area to be slightly better att defending against multiple enemies at once). But, because of the damage being less for each consecutive hit, it's very likely that the second or third hit will simply bounce off the armour rather than penetrate, but against peasant rabble, cut, hack and slash away!
    I think if your second hit with the same swing ends up doing 0 damage the majority of the time then this is clearly not going to be much of an issue. If people then have to waste perks to try and improve their potential to damage multiple foes then they are going to be weaker in other areas that can then be exploited.

    ------------------------------------------

    I think it's great that people are expressing their concerns on pretty much every feature that has been mentioned so far on these forums, (we all have our own vision of how amazing this game could be and want to push the game in that direction,) but in some cases, like this one, I think it might be best to wait until we have actually got to test it before putting forward our individual arguments for either case.

  9. #29
    I'm really trying my best to offer my opinion, and of course, arguing is part of that. So since this is a discussion forum, if I insult your opinion or your logic in anyway, its nothing personal. Its the internet.

    @reis91, @Scullyy:
    Quote Originally Posted by reis91 View Post
    So, there's no reward in, for instance, grabbing a claymore and hitting two players with a side swing, at the same time. For instance
    (1)

    ---
    Scullyy: It'll be confusing as hell and I imagine dying to a hit that went straight through your teammate will be enraging
    reis91: Blame your teammate for not blocking, or yourself for assuming he will and not blocking yourself.
    (2)
    1-
    I'm honestly not bloody sure what the heck you're on about man..
    Are you actually THINKING of the situation you are describing for a minute?
    Hitting two players with a 'wide' swing at the same time? Here is a picture describing your situation, that by the way I can tell you DOESN'T happen nearly at all in melee games of this nature.
    In both arcade things like AoC and in more raw ones like Warband. It just doesn't happen.

    Here is a picture



    Green represents the main target.
    Red possible locations of another person, not directly behind the main target. The swing JUST DOESN'T HIT THEM unless it goes right through the first target with enough energy to do damage to the second one..
    Alternatively, the first target can be knocked back and then hit the second target with a bump or something, which is something that I am not against.

    A "wide" swing doesn't mean you can hit two things at once. Its impossible. Swing a sword, give it a shot. The only way it would happen is in the picture. That exact time frame, at that exact moment, with perfect parallel lines. With two targets at the sword position at once. Its just not viable at all, it rarely ever happens unless everyone is marching in parallel pairs... Especially that swings aren't generally semi-circles like I've drawn, but more parabolic in nature.

    2-
    First, I just want to remind you Reis, that this game is a game where you control 1 player at a time. You are responsible for YOUR actions as a player. Not anyone else's. Having any sort of system where you are punished for someone else's actions is retarded.

    PART 1 - Blame your teammate for not blocking: END RESUT: I'm still bloody dead. Because I didn't see the swing. Because there was a person in the way. So I couldn't block. How is this in anyway fair in your mind? And don't even talk about it being physically possible, because we both know its not. I'm talking from a "You are responsible for YOUR actions as a player" perspective here.
    PART 2 - or yourself for assuming he will and not blocking yourself: END RESULT: Unless they are fully invisible, I am being held responsible for my ally's position, and the fact that he blocked my vision of an incoming swing and didn't block it. And according to you, I should be able to do that, and I also need to blame my teammate for being a noob and not blocking at the same time. What a winning formula you have here >.> - Please. Just stop talking.


    @Robin:
    Quote Originally Posted by Robin. View Post
    Well, it's really an issue of player skill and player feedback. Players have to be careful in how they swing their weapons, especially around allies. That's what teamplay melee is all about. They will also get feedback and consistency in how the swings work so that they actually can take such things into account and make informed decisions. (1)


    Like I wrote, a blocked swing is blocked and will always be stopped. It's wounding unblocked swings that continue through. If the swing is deflected off a shield, off armour or parried it will not be able to wound anybody further. (2)


    Well, it would be pretty cool to be able to nail somebody to a wall with a killing bolt from an arbalest (3)

    And from what I've heard, a longbow arrow shot at point blank range WOULD actually pass straight through a person and hit whatever is behind... (4)
    1- Robin, have you played melee games on the internet before with friendly fire? People simply don't care. As Mery already pointed out, people just come in and swing away thinking they will get a kill. The tendency of this increasing is directly proportional to the length of their weapon. Team Play is not about making sure your swing doesn't go through an enemy and hit your friend Robin lol. Its about moving like a unit. Surrounding your enemy. Reading the battle. Using right kits. And supporting one another. On both competitive and casual level, no team play should require ANY gamer to thinking about where their swing is going after it hits their main target. That is IMPEDING to gameplay and common sense combined. Unless of course, we have lightsabres.. which we don't in this particular time period. I think as developers, you should encourage team play by balancing out classes, creating interesting positions on certain maps, auto-kick after a certain number of tk's...etc Team play is not about worrying about if my friendly blocked an attack directed at him... These situations encourage me being stuck as collateral, both unable to see the attack, and when I do, not able to react in time because there is a freaking person in the way of the swing..

    Adding more this lol, can you imagine situations where certain people would not care about hitting their own team mates if there is an enemy at the end of the swing path? Why have a feature that can have people do that?

    You still didn't address my questions though, which I'm very interested to see you answer.. Here they are again:

    Quote Originally Posted by Question 1
    How would someone block against a 'magic' swing? Naturally, if there is someone in the way of an enemy's attack, I'd think, "its fine, the friendly will either block it or take the hit. In both cases I'm fine", but then on goes the swing and I'm hit, even though I probably didn't have clear vision on where the attack was coming from.
    Quote Originally Posted by Question 2
    Can you imagine(i.e. explain your logic here) hitting through an enemy that you and a teammate are trying to kill, killing him and then having your swing go on to do friendly fire to your friend?
    2- I think its quite clear that a blocked attack is blocked... I wasn't arguing what happened when it got blocked, because that is what you would expect. A blocked swing stops, done.
    I'm arguing what happens after it lands or hits someone.

    The question was regarding what happens when the ally that is in the way of the enemy's sword and me gets hit, i.e. fails to block, and then I am left there and will almost instantly get hit myself. I see this happening with longer weapons, and with polearms too.

    3- Okay.

    4- You know I'm not really sure what you take us for to believe something like that lol.
    Longbows have a hard time going through a few layers of cloth, leather and maille. We are in a period of plate, and you're telling us that arrows fired from point blank go straight through people with ENOUGH force to have the arrow go through the person, wearing the armor, and then do damage to something behind it.
    If you really believe that, then you are quite misinformed about how potent Longbows where and the nature of their use in this time period and in fact, ever.

    Maybe a bolt can go through your arm, or leg, sure. Maybe through your neck. But having enough power to keep traveling and hurt someone else, also wearing armor? lol. Come on. These aren't high velocity rifles, Robin.

    @PA:
    Quote Originally Posted by ProjectAngel View Post
    but in some cases, like this one, I think it might be best to wait until we have actually got to test it before putting forward our individual arguments for either case.
    Not sure why we would wait. Its a stupid feature and it will impede gameplay, encourage spam, and have more windows for exploits appear.
    Also add to that it doesn't make sense in the real world.. Or the game world.. Or Equestria even.

    I've yet to hear a good, logical argument for multiple targets of one swing in anyone's posts.
    Maybe its because they don't exist. But someone please do prove me wrong.

    The only way I'd see this happening is implementing a 'bounce' off system, where if a sword gets bounced off someone's armor, it changes the direction of the swing, slows it down, reduces its damage but still hits something in the new, modified, or reflected swing arch. THAT would be viable. Anything else discussed here wouldn't.
    Last edited by Salahudin; 27-03-2012 at 18:56.
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  10. #30
    Field Marshal reis91's Avatar
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    In a 1v1 game perspective, yes. I do think the developers don't want to exclude teamplay though. That could be fixed with a duel mode like Warband, though, so nobody feels left out.

    About side swings, they can perfectly happen, in Warband I've done tons of them. Actually, the players wouldn't have to be parallel for that to happen. The outer player might be slightly ahead, or the blade might be curved.
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  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by reis91 View Post
    In a 1v1 game perspective, yes. I do think the developers don't want to exclude teamplay though. That could be fixed with a duel mode like Warband, though, so nobody feels left out.

    About side swings, they can perfectly happen, in Warband I've done tons of them. Actually, the players wouldn't have to be parallel for that to happen. The outer player might be slightly ahead, or the blade might be curved.
    We don't have curved swords in this time period. And the fighting style in the period also doesn't encourage hitting two people at once with your blade/weapon.But as I said, if my argument was based on reality, it would be an easy win for me, but I'm arguing for gameplay's sake.

    Secondly, you say if a player is ahead, that is the case with the red x on the left. When you swing, you swing through your target, not at it, so with that in mind, you still can't hit the red x on the left not matter how you swing. The only way it would happen is if your sword pummel is leading the swing, and even then it would be a very awkward swing that doesn't do much damage to your opponent. In fact, I don't see why anyone would swing that way. It feels more like a parry.

    Also, Warband doesn't allow for this. You hit 1 person at most. The only time it works is when you hit a horse and the rider.
    Other than that, the first thing in your swing arch is what gets hit. Anything beyond it is irrelevant.
    Last edited by Salahudin; 27-03-2012 at 21:17.
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  12. #32
    I'd leave pass-thru possibility only for piercing hits.
    It'll be funny to see first in line plated knight who survives (barely notices) the hit (cutting him in two) and dieing from the that exact swing man in cloth behind him. Nonsense...

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salahudin View Post
    We don't have curved swords in this time period.
    No halberds?

    Secondly, you say if a player is ahead, that is the case with the red x on the left. When you swing, you swing through your target, not at it, so with that in mind, you still can't hit the red x on the left not matter how you swing. The only way it would happen is if your sword pummel is leading the swing, and even then it would be a very awkward swing that doesn't do much damage to your opponent. In fact, I don't see why anyone would swing that way. It feels more like a parry.
    Depends on the part of body you hit. If you hit an arm close to the pommel, it can cut it and the belly of the other guy. You also have to take in mind that you don't necessarily do stationary swinging, you can actually move during the swing. So, you can hit one guy first, and, by moving at a certain angle, carry on your blade to hit the second guy after you hit the first. Incidentally, it would be awesome if you could use this to score double hits on a player.

    Also, Warband doesn't allow for this. You hit 1 person at most. The only time it works is when you hit a horse and the rider.
    Other than that, the first thing in your swing arch is what gets hit. Anything beyond it is irrelevant.
    I said I done them, not that I scored hits. I know perfectly well you can't do that in Warband, and it's a flaw.
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  14. #34
    Husky Comrade Chaos's Avatar
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    Isn't a halberd a pole weapon with a hitting surface of about a foot?

  15. #35
    Lt. General Beowulf1990's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Comrade Chaos View Post
    Isn't a halberd a pole weapon with a hitting surface of about a foot?
    Also perfectly straight
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  16. #36
    Field Marshal reis91's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beowulf1990 View Post
    Also perfectly straight
    You can still hit two guys in one swing though. Not easy, admittedly, but it should be possible. Same thing for poleaxes, longswords, etc.
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  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by reis91 View Post
    You can still hit two guys in one swing though. Not easy, admittedly, but it should be possible. Same thing for poleaxes, longswords, etc.
    I disagree that this would be possible often enough to warrant all the above stated negative impact.
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  18. #38
    Halberds.


    Cutting someone's arm off is a lot of energy dude. You underestimate how much energy it takes to cut through flesh + bone + armor, be it leather or plate.
    Its not realistic, so stop trying to tell me it is.
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  19. #39
    Field Marshal reis91's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salahudin View Post
    Halberds.


    Cutting someone's arm off is a lot of energy dude. You underestimate how much energy it takes to cut through flesh + bone + armor, be it leather or plate.
    Its not realistic, so stop trying to tell me it is.
    Depends on the cut. If you go through the bone, then yes. If you only catch flesh, not so much. Plus, arms are relatively unarmored, generally. If you're riding a horse at high speed you get a lot of momentum into your weapon, as well as the opposite scenario, of a rider charging into a polearm. You have to take into account the momentum of both targets.
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  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salahudin View Post

    @Robin:
    You still didn't address my questions though, which I'm very interested to see you answer.. Here they are again:
    The reason for that is that I'm not here to argue with you. I might elaborate upon things that have been shown in the videos so far, I might elaborate upon our reasoning and I might clarify things I've said, but arguing about purely hypothetical occurences isn't exactly going to help any of us

    You are of course free to discuss among yourselves of what you would like, why etc and I find it interesting, even so much that I might ask for more thoughts behind your reasoning, but that really is a different story.

    Oh, and about the longbows. I believe I did say at point blank range and I don't recall that I mentioned any armour.

    To through another stick on the fire though, I bet I could bust up two peoples heads with one swing with a baseball bat
    Last edited by Robin.; 28-03-2012 at 01:06.

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