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    Field Marshal heliostellar's Avatar
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    Looking to RP a 19th century united India

    The title says it all. What is a PLAUSIBLE united India RP for this period? I think only Panjab could realistically create the Indian union, but in AHD it's ridiculously hard. What's another way? I'm even willing to mod since Sepoy rebels are a joke...
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  2. #2
    Field Marshal calvinhobbeslik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heliostellar View Post
    The title says it all. What is a PLAUSIBLE united India RP for this period? I think only Panjab could realistically create the Indian union, but in AHD it's ridiculously hard. What's another way? I'm even willing to mod since Sepoy rebels are a joke...
    It is not really plausible for an Indian state IRL to defeat the British East India Company; it would either have to involve a major rebellion(which would succeed only by force of numbers, but 90k Brit soldiers can probably crush a rebellion of every single Indian in-game) or intervention by another European power(France).

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    Field Marshal heliostellar's Avatar
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    Hmmmph.... but not even the Sepoys were in a position to overthrow?
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    Field Marshal calvinhobbeslik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heliostellar View Post
    Hmmmph.... but not even the Sepoys were in a position to overthrow?
    A rebellion with wide popular support with foreign intervention(like the American War for Independence) would probably be necessary. Also, looking at wikipedia, it seems that, like in the game, the UK's princely states helped it.

    BTW, what does RP stand for?

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    Role Playing I would guess?

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    Unfortunately, like other PI games such as EU3, not all states are created equally. In this time in history, there aren't a lot of countries that can stand up to the United Kingdom in a war and Panjab isn't one of them. The way V2 is set up, it's almost impossible to get the U.K. out of India. I can't imagine trying to do it as a poor, weak, Indian unciv. The game just isn't long enough to let you build up the kind of momentum you would need to pull that off, I think.

  7. #7
    Field Marshal heliostellar's Avatar
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    Hmmmmm... I was trying to think of ways to buff up those Sepoys.... Back to the drawing board, I guess.

    Quote Originally Posted by Legions of Rome View Post
    Role Playing I would guess?
    Precisely
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  8. #8
    If you don't mind tedious modding, maybe you could mod in a new country called British India which starts as a dominion of the U.K. (and holding all of Britain's Indian provinces at the start of the game instead of the U.K.) and set it up for the potential to tag change to regular India through typical union events?

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    Unfortunately, I think the only plausible way, as has been mentioned, would be a mass sepoy rebellion. The Indian mutiny/rebellion of 1857 stood a reasonable chance of success, though suffered from a lack of unified leadership and goals and lost public support in Britain with the massacre at Cawnpore. You're best bet may be to play as the UK, attempt to foment as much militancy as possible in India, and when you get a Sepoy revolt, deliberately lose (the ai would just crush it). Then, switch to the newly formed Indian state and you're good to go.
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  10. #10
    Field Marshal Trin Tragula's Avatar
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    I don't know that much about British India after it's initial expansion phase really but:
    Mysore had been relatively recently beaten by the British (and put up a pretty good fight). Hyderabad should probably also have a lot more resources and influence than it's in game situation would imply (and by the 1950's the Nizam was still a lot richer than the Indian government).
    Bengal was a power house just 100 years before the game starts but as it became the base of operations for the EIC it would seem an unlikely core for an independent India.

    If we are to focus on possibilities rather than why it would be impossible (you did mention being willing to mod the game)
    It should be a lot more likely near the start of the game imho. Many of the company holding are still recently acquired by 1836. The consolidation of it's Indian territories was still going on and the local aristocracy in the many regions that the British had just expanded into remained the same as before their take over in many cases. Foreign intervention (but who would be powerful enough?) + a widespread and coordinated revolt might work.

    Still one have to ask, if the EIC lost it's grip on India in the early 19th century, would it have resulted in a united India at all? Or rather would the Nizam, Mysore, Bengal, Punjab, etc once again emerge as strong regional powers?

    Another variant would be an independent India with the former company as it's ruling class (but here we are moving into fantasy). A foreign aristocracy wouldn't be something new for the region and ultimately this would probably not be that different from the company rule we know from history (apart from when it comes to foreign affairs).

    Detailed maps of the growth of British India from the excellent Swartzberg atlas of South asian history:
    http://dsal.uchicago.edu/reference/s...tml?object=092
    http://dsal.uchicago.edu/reference/s...tml?object=093

    As shown by the maps many of the acquisitions are still quite fresh by 1836, some aren't even older than 10 years or so. The big enemies of british expansion were generally finally beaten within the last 40 years (and Punjab still remain independent).

    There is a whole lot speaking against any of this of course. But as I understand it you're trying to find an angle from which to start an Indian take over and then RP from there, in which case I think the above might be good to keep in mind.
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  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by heliostellar View Post
    The title says it all. What is a PLAUSIBLE united India RP for this period? I think only Panjab could realistically create the Indian union, but in AHD it's ridiculously hard. What's another way? I'm even willing to mod since Sepoy rebels are a joke...
    I've done it as Panjab.
    The first piece of advice I'll give you is perhaps a bit gamey, the rest is plausible enough though.
    Get military access to a neighbour, that isn't Afghanistan, move your armies there, now attack Afghanistan. Let them occupy everything until war exhaustion reaches 100. Now white peace them. Consciousness will now quickly rise bringing plurality, and thereby research points, with it. DO NOT pick any reforms untill you've gained enough research points to westernize, it should be possible before 1870. This was the gamey part.

    Now you need to get a good economy going, so you can afford a gigantic army. Choose tech that keeps your research at a maximum, then practical steam engine and all that, now research every army tech there is. DO NOT get access to the sea, this will render the british navy worthless. Build a massive army using guards instead of regulars, now attack the british for the state Delhi. Don't occupy anything. Let their armies come to you, crush them all, occupy, win Delhi. The number of pops you gain from this makes the rest of the game a lot easier. If you want to industrialize, sphere Persia for iron and coal.

    I'm guessing Hyderabad could do it aswell, although the gamey part of it is not possible here.

  12. #12
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    The luckiest you can get is for the UK to suffer a revolution, thereby losing its puppets in India. That creates a very small front for Panjab to fight them in, when it civilizes, and the ability to score great defensive victories (with lots of artillery), which can then be followed up by rapid expansion into Delhi. I was fortunate (or unfortunate) enough to see that in my Panjab game, so I'm not sure how easy it would be to win such a war without that advantage. Be that as it may, Panjab's economy is quite good and it has the potential to raise a lot of brigades. I don't know about AHD but in the original Vic2 it's the third most powerful unciv at the start of the game. The trick is to attempt whatever you plan against the British Empire as soon as possible, because the longer you wait the more time they have to turn their Indian colonies into states, which makes it much harder to liberate them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Selzro View Post
    The luckiest you can get is for the UK to suffer a revolution, thereby losing its puppets in India. That creates a very small front for Panjab to fight them in, when it civilizes, and the ability to score great defensive victories (with lots of artillery), which can then be followed up by rapid expansion into Delhi. I was fortunate (or unfortunate) enough to see that in my Panjab game, so I'm not sure how easy it would be to win such a war without that advantage. Be that as it may, Panjab's economy is quite good and it has the potential to raise a lot of brigades. I don't know about AHD but in the original Vic2 it's the third most powerful unciv at the start of the game. The trick is to attempt whatever you plan against the British Empire as soon as possible, because the longer you wait the more time they have to turn their Indian colonies into states, which makes it much harder to liberate them.
    The problem in AHD is that is takes much longer to westernise, which makes it much harder to unify India before the game ends, in addition to them turning colonies into states. In fact, since the British Empire is so big, newar the end, you'd have to invade the British Isles themselves to get enough warscore.

  14. #14
    Field Marshal heliostellar's Avatar
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    For those saying that this isn't realistic for the era, I still think this is more realistic than the Prussians seceding from Germany or Russia conquering South-West England. Doesn't that stuff happen all the time?

    I might go with the gamey Panjab route. I hate that I have to do that though. I'd rather the Sepoys or the Pan-nationalists have a more realistic way to win, but I'm still not entirely sure on the best solution to mod them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trin Tragula View Post
    I don't know that much about British India after it's initial expansion phase really but:
    Mysore had been relatively recently beaten by the British (and put up a pretty good fight). Hyderabad should probably also have a lot more resources and influence than it's in game situation would imply (and by the 1950's the Nizam was still a lot richer than the Indian government).
    Bengal was a power house just 100 years before the game starts but as it became the base of operations for the EIC it would seem an unlikely core for an independent India.

    If we are to focus on possibilities rather than why it would be impossible (you did mention being willing to mod the game)
    It should be a lot more likely near the start of the game imho. Many of the company holding are still recently acquired by 1836. The consolidation of it's Indian territories was still going on and the local aristocracy in the many regions that the British had just expanded into remained the same as before their take over in many cases. Foreign intervention (but who would be powerful enough?) + a widespread and coordinated revolt might work.

    Still one have to ask, if the EIC lost it's grip on India in the early 19th century, would it have resulted in a united India at all? Or rather would the Nizam, Mysore, Bengal, Punjab, etc once again emerge as strong regional powers?

    Another variant would be an independent India with the former company as it's ruling class (but here we are moving into fantasy). A foreign aristocracy wouldn't be something new for the region and ultimately this would probably not be that different from the company rule we know from history (apart from when it comes to foreign affairs).

    Detailed maps of the growth of British India from the excellent Swartzberg atlas of South asian history:
    http://dsal.uchicago.edu/reference/s...tml?object=092
    http://dsal.uchicago.edu/reference/s...tml?object=093

    As shown by the maps many of the acquisitions are still quite fresh by 1836, some aren't even older than 10 years or so. The big enemies of british expansion were generally finally beaten within the last 40 years (and Punjab still remain independent).

    There is a whole lot speaking against any of this of course. But as I understand it you're trying to find an angle from which to start an Indian take over and then RP from there, in which case I think the above might be good to keep in mind.
    Interesting perspective here, thanks for sharing. Yes, it seems like British India was such an institution, but in reality it hadn't existed for very long as of the opening of the games time frame.

    As far as a united India and whether or not it would have existed.... IRL, when British India was given independence the new nation actually had to resort to a military solution to get some of the princely states to join, so I do think it's realistic for one to exist the question is more or less how. Not sure on how to address the Hindu/Islam tensions though.

    There were a number of historical empires that encompassed all or most of the subcontinent such as the Mughals and also the Mauryas as well as a number of Islamic dynasties so I think we have sufficient precedence for a united Indian nation just as much as there would be for a united German or Polish nation. It just seems that the game dynamics satellite system and the oddly low militancy in British India prevent us from ever seeing it. The Sepoy revolt was actual army units no longer listening to British or British-allied authority. That's a little difficult to model here because we're saying that the army units in India should actually disappear along with their underlying manpower while the revolt is underway. I'm not sure that the rebel feature alone can truly model that accurately...
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  16. #16
    Field Marshal heliostellar's Avatar
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    Is anyone aware of how to get soldiers to rebel? It was possible to do in V1 but I've never seen that functionality in V2...
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    When soldier pops are followers of a revolutionary ideology, at times of high militancy their brigades defect from the army and become rebels, usually soon before a general revolution. How soon that happens (or whether it will happen at all) depends on the "reliability" factor of the general in command.
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    Field Marshal calvinhobbeslik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Selzro View Post
    When soldier pops are followers of a revolutionary ideology, at times of high militancy their brigades defect from the army and become rebels, usually soon before a general revolution. How soon that happens (or whether it will happen at all) depends on the "reliability" factor of the general in command.
    Does the general ever defect to the revolution?

  19. #19
    Colonel Selzro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by calvinhobbeslik View Post
    Does the general ever defect to the revolution?
    I've never noticed that. I don't think they do, but I might be mistaken.
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  20. #20
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    Reliability impacts the militancy of the unit by a direct amount. Seriously, put a general with bad reliability in charge and go look at the POP. You'll see a militancy hit. (good reliability reduces militancy) I don't think it impacts whether the soldier POP revolts. If the POP revolts, the units created from that soldier POP turn rebel.

    So, in order for a revolt in India to stand a chance, you'd have to not only get a big revolt, but you'd also want the UK to have tons of Indian soldiers which join the revolt.

    The catch is that rebel brigades do not benefit from the techs you have. So, for example, rebels from a nation with gas defense suddenly forget to wear gas masks, making rebels a joke against anyone with 1900 techs.
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