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Thread: 2 Problems: HRE far too powerful, and no attrition to large armies

  1. #1

    2 Problems: HRE far too powerful, and no attrition to large armies

    So, I've been playing as various Italian Dukes, and I run into the same problem. I get a good early start, get up to ~8 Demesnes, and some nice vassals, and then the HRE gets absolute authority, and I can't do anything.
    I can't wage wars against anyone, even with claims.

    Rebellions against the HRE never work, b/c the emperor can move his massive stack back and forth across Europe with no attrition. So, the game just stagnates.

    Even if I try to fight the emperor myself along with multiple revolters, the HRE can still raise levies from my vassals and demesnes, and you can't beat those massive stacks.

    Anyone else see this? Any way around it?
    Qui desiderat pacem, preparet bellum

  2. #2
    The only way around it is to start early with lowering the CA, using weak moments of the HRE (new emperor raised to the throne, moments when the emperor has conquered tons of infidels counties and hasn't installed vassals yet etc.). But in general the HRE really is far to overpowered, specially the opinion bonus through elective succession makes it far more stable, than kingdoms like France or England that most of the time get Primogeniture, when it should be the other way around.

    I really hope they nerf the HRE and the BE to make it more fun to play a vassal in those empires, because at the moment it can lead to a boring dead end, just as you described it.

  3. #3
    The HRE generally has high supply I think. Try playing in other parts of the world and you'll see the effects of attrition.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Muskeato View Post
    The HRE generally has high supply I think. Try playing in other parts of the world and you'll see the effects of attrition.
    OK. But in real life, a 15K army that started in Danzig, went on Crusade, then comes back to Germany, b/c of revolts, and then marched to Italy, would arrive with 5K men not 15K.
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  5. #5
    I agree that it feels like attrition is under-estimated in this game. Ramping it up (and allowing defensive wars of independence) would go along way towards making the HRE feel more historical.

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    Colonel Diet of Worms's Avatar
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    Attrition is a little odd, in that if you play early dates it is almost irrelevant in most circumstances. A couple of centuries later though and it feels more like EU3 with the way you have to constantly juggle stack sizes.

  7. #7
    I got my Kingdom of Italy + Sicily going and I can rebelled just fine. The trick is wait for HRE to go to war with france then rebel, move quickly so it doesn't stack up and try to defend on high grounds with reinforcements. Usually the war is decided in 1 10k+ stack battle, then it is a matter of splitting up and sieging 5 counties at a time. ><

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    Attrition is a killer for every stack over 10K. Of course at the start they have much less armies and it does not show. Later though... If anything, the AI does not seem to handle attrition well they get murdered.

  9. #9
    Recently I've played the CK2Plus-mod and I was delighted to find out that in that mod an independence war ending in a white peace grants independence. The HRE will still be a powerhouse but will also lose many duchies which will become independent. The emperor will reconquer some of them but overall, the HRE is way more balanced in that mod. I recommend checking it out.

  10. #10
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    If you hire enough mercenaries you will be able to defeat the HRE as an Italian duke.

    But I agree about attrition. 0 % attrition is not realistic, even with optimal conditions. Some soldiers will always desert, get sick or die. Friedrich Barbarossa drowned while crossing a river. Bad stuff will always happen, if you are stupid enough to leave your bed in the morning.
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  11. #11
    How big a warchest do you need before you declare Independence?
    Qui desiderat pacem, preparet bellum

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    Quote Originally Posted by aegandolfi View Post
    How big a warchest do you need before you declare Independence?
    Your army + mercenaries should at least equal an army your master can wield or be greater than that. For Italian player independence should be a bit easier since you can protect your back better and you can choose to fight in the Alps getting the defense bonuses.

  13. #13
    Nominal attrition of smaller armies might be desirable but then you HAVE to cut the immense attrition of larger armies, especially as tech progresses. In the last century there is a much bigger 'attrition problem' than in the first one and its clearly not that theres not enough of it...

  14. #14
    If you hire enough mercenaries you will be able to defeat the HRE as an Italian duke.

    But I agree about attrition. 0 % attrition is not realistic, even with optimal conditions. Some soldiers will always desert, get sick or die. Friedrich Barbarossa drowned while crossing a river. Bad stuff will always happen, if you are stupid enough to leave your bed in the morning.
    You have to remember , big armies were able to recruit on the fly. (slightly different time line) but napoleon snowballed his army by recruiting new people from captured regions. IF a bunch of pagan warriors or peasant rebel's are = to light infantry , it should be ez mode for armies to resupply troops.

    I don't think attrition is unrealistic. Im not a historian but i remember seeing this thing on Hannibal who marched some giant army across the Italian mountains to invade Rome..... DURING WINTER. And he even managed to bring some elephants along as well. Not to mention it was well before 1066 AD. They say he also recruited warriors in italy to replace the ones that did desert / die. Maybe the story is hyped up , but if he can do that , seeing armies march around a fairly modern world (in contrast) , across smaller mountains and mostly plains is very much plausible. IF anything attrition needs to be nerfed. AI are oblivious to it (and can be abused easily) , and waging cross ocean invasions are near impossible late game. Playing as England , most enemy armies lose 1/3 their troops just getting to you.



    As for HRE and BRE , yes they are too strong. Even in 1.04 , BRE still seems to stand indefinitely (and becomes the strongest entity by a mile). On their own they have the Muslims and Mongols scared to go near them. Then you get unholy alliances between the two and no one can stop their combined 300K+ armies , not even the FRENCH. Im not even sure why the AI always rush Absolute crown authority. But i know if i put that in any of my kingdoms , any province more than a few meters from my capitol WILL revolt. You get like a +20% revolt chance just for having it (not including the - to relations). Not sure how HRE hold it together with Absolute crown on.
    Last edited by Kynaz; 22-03-2012 at 16:52.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tuplis View Post
    Recently I've played the CK2Plus-mod and I was delighted to find out that in that mod an independence war ending in a white peace grants independence. The HRE will still be a powerhouse but will also lose many duchies which will become independent. The emperor will reconquer some of them but overall, the HRE is way more balanced in that mod. I recommend checking it out.
    I tried doing this with my mod but my liege would always accept a white peace at around 3% war score. Does the CK2Plus-mod fix this?

  16. #16
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    One thing that could help a bit is not making German a monolithic culture. Create several subcultures, just like the french have occitain and normans as foreigners, so should germans be split into subcultures.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Beagá View Post
    One thing that could help a bit is not making German a monolithic culture. Create several subcultures, just like the french have occitain and normans as foreigners, so should germans be split into subcultures.
    I dont think Germany needs that, honestly. The HRE is already split between German, Bohemian, Dutch, Italian and Frankish, all in different culturegroups. Doing more splitting would be overkill.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aegandolfi View Post
    How big a warchest do you need before you declare Independence?
    Depends on the length of the war, of course. I would count in monthly income rather than warchest. If you can mobilize 10.000 feudal troops and maintain an equal amount of mercenaries you should be fine (disband the feudal levies after defeating the initital stacks and remobilize when facing a crisis).

    You need a monthly income of about 40 to pull this off (shortages can be solved by ransoms). But, needless to say, more is better.
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  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Tuplis View Post
    Recently I've played the CK2Plus-mod and I was delighted to find out that in that mod an independence war ending in a white peace grants independence. The HRE will still be a powerhouse but will also lose many duchies which will become independent. The emperor will reconquer some of them but overall, the HRE is way more balanced in that mod. I recommend checking it out.
    That is awesome, that white peace = independence might help prevent the blobs from being so boringly stable.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alerias View Post
    I dont think Germany needs that, honestly. The HRE is already split between German, Bohemian, Dutch, Italian and Frankish, all in different culturegroups. Doing more splitting would be overkill.
    Not quite. It would not decrease relations with those groups more than it does now, while creating smaller armies (more people with negative relation to the emperor) and more chances for rebellion. Also, making a bit more difficult to increase crown authority. One must be careful to not weaken the HRE too much, even worse than a grey blob every game would be a cracked empire full of independent duchies.

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