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What do you want to see in Dungeon Master Mode (PvP)?

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unmerged(314357)

Critical Studio Developer
May 11, 2011
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Hello!

Here at Critical Studio we are full steam ahead in the design of Dungeon Master Mode.

For those who don't know yet, Dungeonland will feature a unique PvP mode where 3 players will play the role of the heroes in cooperative action gameplay, while 1 player will take the role of the evil Dungeon Master and try to kill the heroes (and unleash a lot of evil laughs while doing so).

You guys and gals probably played a lot of pen and paper RPGs with a DM that seemed more interested in killing you than telling a good story. You also probably played asymmetrical competitive board games such as Descent or Hero Quest.

With DMM in Dungeonland, we want to bring that asymmetrical gameplay. We want the heroes to have those feelings of tension, of not knowing exactly what cards the villain still has up his sleeve, and of uniting against a single foe - "we can do this!".

We want the Dungeon Master player to feel powerful, to watch over the tiny heroes lost in those corridors and think "let's see how they'll handle THIS", to do something weird and surprising and have a good laugh while watching the heroes panicking!

So what do you want? How can we make DMM better? What do you think is important?
 
Needs:
Random layout to levels
- This prevents the PCs from rushing, if they don't know where to go, then they can't plan ahead.
Traps
- Forcing players to move slowly in fear of traps gives a mental advantage to the DM
Hordes
- I'm not sure of the enemies in this game, but something weak but large in numbers to give that "oh crap!" feeling. Should be triggered either on a timer, or when the PCs are not moving around much, possibly talking.
A big scary guy
- You're going to have to take a lot of inspiration from Left4Dead, as it did so well. Need something big and scary. Possibly not able to choose when it comes.
Balance
- Either the DM can micromanage the minions, or he can't, but if he can't, they need to be decently strong.
Randomness from the DM
- This, off the top of my head, can come from one of two ways. Either the DM gets a pool of monsters/traps to choose from, or he can get given 'cards' and then play/stockpile them. They would have to expire to prevent a massive gang. Maybe a 'lock' to prevent a few from expiring, or once you have X, you can't get more?
Persistance
- You'll have this from the PC side, so you have to have it from the DM side. Veteran versions of normal minions? Unlockable units/traps?
Field of Vision
- Simple, but important, the DM should be able to see everything, and plan ahead, while the PCs should not.
 
@pevergreen

I would be against the DM micromanaging the minions. In my opinion direct control would detract from the feeling of being a puppeteer viewing and directing the action from a distance.


I like the idea of the players and DM having cards to play during the levels. A stylish an intuitive gameplay device that might also draw in board game players. They could be powerful and potentially level changing (randomly chosen) abilities which are given out a few times during a level, in addition to say 3 that the players and DM each start with. You could cap the number each side could hold to 5 or 6 and when they end up with more than that they would have to choose one to discard. The players would have a shared pool between them for their cards; any one of them could use any card at any point in time, but be prepared to face your team's wrath if they feel you have squandered one (if griefing becomes a major problem then you could put a timer on a player's use of cards).

They could be given to the DM for achievements during the level such as dealing a certain amount of damage to the players overall, having a player be caught by a trap combo with a certain number of steps or more, having the players be caught by a certain number of chest traps overall, keeping the players in a room for a certain amount of time, reflecting a mage's spell back on them, etc.

They could be given to the players for achievements during the level such as killing a certain number of minions overall, killing a certain number or more of minions at once, dealing a certain amount of damage (scaled with level) in one hit to one major minion, avoiding/disarming a certain number of traps, pulling off a team combo attack, not losing any health in the first 10 minutes of the level, etc.

The abilities of these cards for the players could be things like summoning a powerful allied monster for a 2 minutes, enchanting a weapon for a few minutes to significantly faster and more damage-dealing, cause a group of minions to fall asleep or attack each other, teleport the party a short distance ahead, make the party invisible for a minutes, etc.

The abilities of these cards for the DM could be things like conjuring particular named boss minions, making a section of dungeon floor constantly emit flames or cold, temporarily curse one of the players (polymorph a player into a rabbit, blind them, make their attacks deal some damage to themselves, etc.), sending a massive fireball at the players, etc.
 
Thank you, guys. Those are really good insights and both of you will probably like the direction we are heading to right now.

We'd like to hear more of what you all think about the DM micro-managing the monsters. What do you like/don't like about this idea?
 
venturelli said:
Thank you, guys. Those are really good insights and both of you will probably like the direction we are heading to right now.

We'd like to hear more of what you all think about the DM micro-managing the monsters. What do you like/don't like about this idea?
Click to expand...

I like as it adds a direct level of control, and having AI do 'stupid' things (in your opinion) can be very frustrating.

However, it is bad, as it raises the skill cap, meaning a great player has a skill advantage over a normal player (which is not a bad thing), however it could be very high.

Overall, I think it should remain completely AI, with maybe one exception, a playable monster. You jump into it and can control it, but lose the ability to do anything else.

Imagine it, you've just sent in a huge horde of monsters, then a big guy comes out. The PCs are already scared, then they realise this is the controllable one. All hell breaks loose.
 
In my opinion, it could make the DM position only to those who like micro, or are capable of it, instead of opening to anyone who wants to screw their friends.

I'm not sure how the game works yet, but I'm imagining there being a map, or a room, and the DM placing monsters in it. In this case, an interesting option would be giving the DM the ability to set certain behaviours to the monsters, as in Gratuitous Space Battles (but more straightforward). This would allow two encounters with the same set of monsters to still be different from eachother.

The way I see it, imbuing micromanagement with too much importance (allowing it is always fun, as in Men of War) would eventually kill it if there was a big battle (I'm thinking the scale of three Diablo's II fallen camps), as you simply wouldn't be able to properly control every unit, whereas a rules or behaviour mechanic could allow you to make it a mindless berserk army, an army that fights in squads or a mix of both.

In the end, I believe the DM will always be fond of controlling the 'master' unit of the encounter, be it the big brute or the mage, so I'm not sure it can be avoided.

Edit: As an afterthought, it also depends on what level of micromanagement we are talking about, if it is an RTS style it probably wouldn't be that bad to control, I was thinking something more specific as in controllable in a console controller or something, a level similar to what the players are having.
 
Hmm, Dungeon Master Mode.

:D

Alright, drawing from my experience in PnP RPGs... may I suggest adopting an Encounter Card system? Here's what I mean with that...

A Dungeon Master has a deck (limited or unlimited) of Encounter Cards which contain the data on how many and which monsters that encounter has, as well as tactics the monsters are supposed to use. The DM can pre-build these cards while offline or make them on the fly online (though the latter is discouraged for obvious reasons). The game comes with a pre-built deck so you can just jump right into the game without caring for it.

Limiting how much a DM uses encounter cards could be done in several ways, but I will use as an initial suggestion a resource-based system, as in the DM has a set amount of "manpower" (which could replenish or not) and playing an encounter card uses up a determined amount of those resources. There could in addition be a cooldown timer to prevent a DM from spamming all of his cards in one go, though I'd recommend letting small-value cards to have smaller cooldown. (aka if I use an encounter card to send a few chibi monsters to distract the players, I shouldn't be prevented from then dropping on their rear a ZERGRUSHKEKEKE card with 20+ zerglings with their AI set to "Rush" and their targets set to "Crunchy Wizard Player" ;D )

I would suggest trying out a replenishing manpower system if there is no time limit to complete a dungeon. Otherwise, the players almost always have the advantage.

Of course, what I suggest may or may not work, but I think it's good food for thought. PnP DMs usually prepare their encounters ahead of time in any case, so you can see where I'm drawing this from.

Lastly, I would emphasize that letting DMs possess individual monsters detracts them from overall control. While it may be locally useful, I think it is unlikely to be a good idea most of the time. Why, you may ask? Because while you're possessing a monster, you lose perception of the overall situation and likely opportunities to exploit player mistakes. (like leaving the wizard alone while they're bashing some heads, enter ZERGRUSHKEKEKE... )

In fact, a well prepared DM, with a good deck? Should never need to directly control anything to wreak havoc. And that big bad WoW-style boss? Awesome distraction. Plop him down, wait for the players to start whacking at it while fingering that niiiice encounter card you've been reserving just for this situation..... kekekekekekeke~


Let us be evil to our friends, and give them an appropriate challenge. :D (hey, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger, right? Riiiight? :D )
 
Ranking system.

Maybe ELO or maybe some version of stats, but a leaderboard is always good. I like knowing how I'm doing.
 
I would see it like a card game style.

You are the DM, you have a card deck. Containing terrain, creatures, traps...
Before each place in the level, the DM will have to play a certain number of cards that will apply to the area. So for instance, you play the terrain card icy, the creature card puppet summoner (2) card, the blob swarm (50) card, the dancing trap card. So the next area will be icy with 2 puppet summoner, a blob swarm and a hidden dancing trap.
Might be a good idea to let the DM place those on the field.
Maybe some instant card that could be played after the area is launched (should be selected before launching) and discard at the end even if it wasn't used. Those card could heal, renforce, resummon the creatures.
Of course, the DM would be able to create his own deck from a list of card he can buy with dead hero points.

I don't like the idea of controlling the creatures. Maybe the end boss as at this point the DM wouldn't have to do anything. I would suggest to give the DM the direct control (same as playing a hero) over the monster in that case.
 
To me being a Game Master is about planning!

* Maps/Dungeons should be customizeable for the DM, so he/she can add walls, traps, doors, treasures and so on as he/she pleases, while trying to plan the heroes movements (Imho trying to control the PC's movements and actions are what puppetering is all about).
** To make things balance out you could add a point system where Treasures such as magical items gives +points and traps, monsters and such gives ÷points while making/planning the dungeon, this way in order to place x bad things you first need to pay up in good things to the so called heroes
* Once your dungeon are build and planned a DM ofc needs to be able to poke around while the heroes are running the gauntlet. To do this the DM gets a set of preset abilities (could come from a tech/spec tree of some sort), As an example the DM could have an ability that allows him/her to take direct control of a monster (big or small), or abilities to add wanderings monsters, set off traps pre-mature, add magical darkness, add sounds of big growling and darn scary monsters behind a door (even if there is no scuch monster behind the door), and basicly give the DM the tools needed to alter the descisions made by the heroes as they explore the pre-made and planned dungeon, and in this way try to lure the heroes into even greater danger that they would have faced on thier old path.
* Every good dungeon have a cool name! For the love of g.. make DM's able to name tag thier own dungeons ;)
* Perhaps add some different DM types (Overlord: All things hellish - Lich: All things undead - Puppeteer: All things extremly magical - Elementalist: All things in Earth, Water, Air, Fire - Warlord: All things greenskined) and ect. ect.
 
I'd like queing. Being able to que for what you want instead of trudging through 10000 games on the list

Filtering the server list - being able to exclude full games, high ping games, etc etc

Dungeon master rotation. For example, 4 people in a lobby, people can sort of 'opt in' for the role of dungeon master and be selected randomly instead of having to create your own game in order to play as DM.
 
I got some wild ideas :)

First!

Add so you can see ping in server list, not so fun to join a server with over 100 ping...
--------------------------------------------------
DUEL mode!
2 DM
6 victims
1 dungeon each

- The team that get the most score wins, if you complete the dungeon you get some extra points.
- And the DM that get most score wins, the longer the victims comes the lesser the points, and bonus points if they kill a victim.
-----------------------------------------------------
Lesser player mode`
- If you don't want to play with 3 other players! 1v1 or 2v1 BUT the lesser players the weaker DM or stronger victim
-----------------------------------------------------
Some ideas that already been mentioned

- Rotation in the game! so everyone get's to be the DM (or you could add an option to enable it, for those who wants to play like it is now)
- Different races, Orc/undead/human/hell/heaven and more DMs
---------------------------------------------------------

MORE ITEM/CUSTOMIZATION

- Each weapon gives you a different spells! (like mage firewall/fireball/explosion/rain of fire/fire fountain and more!)
- Each weapon/armore/hat gives you different bonuses (more armor,run faster, attack speed and more)
- Add a healer mage
- You could add different races to victims to
 
A voice chat funktion for the players! And the laugh buttom is fun but would be nice with some sentences like: "your all going to die mohahah!","say hello to my babies!" or somthing more fun :)
 
D3nn05 said:
A voice chat funktion for the players! And the laugh buttom is fun but would be nice with some sentences like: "your all going to die mohahah!","say hello to my babies!" or somthing more fun :)
Click to expand...
You're*
 
It would be cool if after the survival mode comes out there is a like mix DM survival mode perhaps? allowing for the same competitive pvp, but in another environment. So you as DM get a few cards before the wave and you spend mana per wave on randomly picked cards, and are given perhaps more mana or more card options as time goes on (or both?).
 
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