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Thread: Possible to make Railways a type of Factory?

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    No Gods, No Bosses. Sovereign's Avatar
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    Possible to make Railways a type of Factory?

    So that workers are paid from the income and the Factory consumes coal, steel, regular clothes, maybe even canned-goods. That way you can expand the factory every RR level as well.

    Is this moddable?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sovereign View Post
    So that workers are paid from the income and the Factory consumes coal, steel, regular clothes, maybe even canned-goods. That way you can expand the factory every RR level as well.

    Is this moddable?
    Unfortunately no. Factories cannot have modifier effects as output, only actual goods.
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    well they can make "rail", and when you build railroads, it only or mostly uses "rail" and not all the rest...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrelvis View Post
    Unfortunately no. Factories cannot have modifier effects as output, only actual goods.
    Actually the RR-Factory wouldn't need to produce anything, it's output would be nothing, just that whenever you built a railroad a factory would appear in the state (unless one was already there). It's output would be nothing, though it would consume coal and steel. When you build a new level of railroad, the RR-factory is expanded.

    The problem I see with this plan is RR-Factory's couldn't appear in non-states, perhaps that would be ok though, it being assumed that RR-Factories in states also cover the running of railroads in colonies.

    Another problem would be if Capitalists, it's probably trivial to have RR-Factories not appear in Capitalist build-lists (they build rairoads anyway) but it may skew the economy... but come to think of it that won't be the Capitalists problem, an "Externality" really, like pollution.

    So, who would pay... the player I guess, as with the army, or a flat 'tax' that every RGO or Factory in the state pays, maybe a tax pops pay too. Note I don't mean another slider here, rather just a notional input or Every Day Good that is only consumed in states with an RR-Factory (or any state with a railroad if we want this to affect colonies too). This would be their consumption of transport. It's be ok for the cost of transport to go up and down on the world market for a number of reasons... so actually the RR-Factory doesn't have to produce nothing, they can produce 'tickets'!

    So, to sum up, RR-Factorys produce 'tickets' that are consumed as everyday needs and inputs by pops and Factorys in the same state.

    There are a couple of tricks in this idea I'm not sure can be played on the game-engine; adding new factory types, adding new inputs or needs, and throwing in the conditionals I alluded too.
    Last edited by Sovereign; 20-03-2012 at 21:44.
    "We must teach them. We must take away their planes, their automatic weapons, their tanks, their artillery and teach them dignity".
    -For Whome the Bell Tolls.


    "Win first, and then fight."
    -Sun Tzu.


    so it is the great precept of nature to love ourselves only as we love our neighbour, or what comes to the same thing, as our neighbour is capable of loving us.

    Adam Smith, -Theory of Moral Sentiments.

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    Covert Mastermind Demi Moderator Secret Master's Avatar
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    The solution would be to make a factory called railroad. It would consume iron, steel, timber, lumber, and coal (with maintenance goods like any other factories, as well). It would produce "rail transport." All factories, POPs, and RGOs would consume "rail transport" as a maintenance/everyday good. Factories and RGOs who don't get their rail transport quota will, of course, operate at reduced output efficiency just like if they were out of machine parts or cement. Since there would be vast shortages of "rail transport" early in the game, factory and RGO efficiency would suck. As it becomes more available, and RGOs and factories satisfy their demand for it, they reach full efficiency. (Remember, lack of maintenance goods can reduce output efficiency by as much as 25%, so this impact is substantial.) You make the default price similar to clippers, so that initially, it is a very expensive good. Eventually, when enough rail transport is in effect, prices go down and everyone is happy. POPs would need this as an everyday good to help keep demand up as population increases.

    Techs would directly affect RR production.

    You would still need infrastructure in provinces so that armies can move faster, but turning the service into a good means that railroads could impact the economy in ways other than a flat bonus with a one time cost.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sovereign View Post
    Actually the RR-Factory wouldn't need to produce anything, it's output would be nothing, just that whenever you built a railroad a factory would appear in the state (unless one was already there). It's output would be nothing, though it would consume coal and steel. When you build a new level of railroad, the RR-factory is expanded.

    The problem I see with this plan is RR-Factory's couldn't appear in non-states, perhaps that would be ok though, it being assumed that RR-Factories in states also cover the running of railroads in colonies.

    Another problem would be if Capitalists, it's probably trivial to have RR-Factories not appear in Capitalist build-lists (they build rairoads anyway) but it may skew the economy... but come to think of it that won't be the Capitalists problem, an "Externality" really, like pollution.

    So, who would pay... the player I guess, as with the army, or a flat 'tax' that every RGO or Factory in the state pays, maybe a tax pops pay too. Note I don't mean another slider here, rather just a notional input or Every Day Good that is only consumed in states with an RR-Factory (or any state with a railroad if we want this to affect colonies too). This would be their consumption of transport. It's be ok for the cost of transport to go up and down on the world market for a number of reasons... so actually the RR-Factory doesn't have to produce nothing, they can produce 'tickets'!

    So, to sum up, RR-Factorys produce 'tickets' that are consumed as everyday needs and inputs by pops and Factorys in the same state.

    There are a couple of tricks in this idea I'm not sure can be played on the game-engine; adding new factory types, adding new inputs or needs, and throwing in the conditionals I alluded too.
    And what if the RR factories go bankrupt?

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Secret Master View Post
    It would produce "rail transport."
    Doesn't that mean you can import rail transport? It sounds monumentally silly that the Japanese could improve their efficiency by buying transport from a railway in the UK.

  8. #8
    Wouldn't the analogy be that Japan was paying UK to run a rail service in Japan?

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    Also, it's impossible to make an RGO require a maintenance good.
    So.. digital distribution equals communism?
    I disagree SO MUCH that I have to close this thread now.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sovereign View Post
    Actually the RR-Factory wouldn't need to produce anything, it's output would be nothing, just that whenever you built a railroad a factory would appear in the state (unless one was already there). It's output would be nothing, though it would consume coal and steel. When you build a new level of railroad, the RR-factory is expanded.

    The problem I see with this plan is RR-Factory's couldn't appear in non-states, perhaps that would be ok though, it being assumed that RR-Factories in states also cover the running of railroads in colonies.

    Another problem would be if Capitalists, it's probably trivial to have RR-Factories not appear in Capitalist build-lists (they build rairoads anyway) but it may skew the economy... but come to think of it that won't be the Capitalists problem, an "Externality" really, like pollution.

    So, who would pay... the player I guess, as with the army, or a flat 'tax' that every RGO or Factory in the state pays, maybe a tax pops pay too. Note I don't mean another slider here, rather just a notional input or Every Day Good that is only consumed in states with an RR-Factory (or any state with a railroad if we want this to affect colonies too). This would be their consumption of transport. It's be ok for the cost of transport to go up and down on the world market for a number of reasons... so actually the RR-Factory doesn't have to produce nothing, they can produce 'tickets'!

    So, to sum up, RR-Factorys produce 'tickets' that are consumed as everyday needs and inputs by pops and Factorys in the same state.

    There are a couple of tricks in this idea I'm not sure can be played on the game-engine; adding new factory types, adding new inputs or needs, and throwing in the conditionals I alluded too.
    Unfortunately that isn't possible for a number of reasons: there is no way to check for which level a province building has, only whether the province has the building or not, and you can't stop the player from being able to shut down this factory, among other issues.

    If you want to replicate the costs of running a railroad, the closest you get is making a province event that triggers when a province has a railroad built (and with a MTTH of 1 month, so it happens as soon after building the railroad as possible), and then that event would apply a province modifier to that province, reducing it's RGO output by a certain percentage.
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    Covert Mastermind Demi Moderator Secret Master's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zwebbie View Post
    Doesn't that mean you can import rail transport? It sounds monumentally silly that the Japanese could improve their efficiency by buying transport from a railway in the UK.
    Quote Originally Posted by falloutboy14 View Post
    Wouldn't the analogy be that Japan was paying UK to run a rail service in Japan?
    I admit, it is not perfect. It also has some other problems, like why does it only employ people in certain parts of the country.

    Quote Originally Posted by KonradRichtmark View Post
    Also, it's impossible to make an RGO require a maintenance good.
    I didn't realize that. Oh well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zwebbie View Post
    Doesn't that mean you can import rail transport? It sounds monumentally silly that the Japanese could improve their efficiency by buying transport from a railway in the UK.
    Um... why would it be silly if the Japanese import rolling-stock from the nation that first implemented railways on a large scale?
    "We must teach them. We must take away their planes, their automatic weapons, their tanks, their artillery and teach them dignity".
    -For Whome the Bell Tolls.


    "Win first, and then fight."
    -Sun Tzu.


    so it is the great precept of nature to love ourselves only as we love our neighbour, or what comes to the same thing, as our neighbour is capable of loving us.

    Adam Smith, -Theory of Moral Sentiments.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Titan Uranus View Post
    And what if the RR factories go bankrupt?
    I like Secret Masters post just above, bankrupt railroads impact factory efficiency and mean pops miss out on an everyday good for awhile (-> pissing them off a little, as happens here in the UK quite often actually). They can close too, but in effect I suppose the railroad is still there as far as troops moving around are concerned. Keep it simple.
    "We must teach them. We must take away their planes, their automatic weapons, their tanks, their artillery and teach them dignity".
    -For Whome the Bell Tolls.


    "Win first, and then fight."
    -Sun Tzu.


    so it is the great precept of nature to love ourselves only as we love our neighbour, or what comes to the same thing, as our neighbour is capable of loving us.

    Adam Smith, -Theory of Moral Sentiments.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by KonradRichtmark View Post
    Also, it's impossible to make an RGO require a maintenance good.
    Then their owners, the Aristocrats can pay for them...
    "We must teach them. We must take away their planes, their automatic weapons, their tanks, their artillery and teach them dignity".
    -For Whome the Bell Tolls.


    "Win first, and then fight."
    -Sun Tzu.


    so it is the great precept of nature to love ourselves only as we love our neighbour, or what comes to the same thing, as our neighbour is capable of loving us.

    Adam Smith, -Theory of Moral Sentiments.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrelvis View Post
    Unfortunately that isn't possible for a number of reasons: there is no way to check for which level a province building has, only whether the province has the building or not, and you can't stop the player from being able to shut down this factory, among other issues..
    that's ok about the level of the building, maybe every level of railways built in a province just adds another level to the RR-Factory. We don't mind if the player closes the factory, it's a decision for them as with normal factories, the consequence though is a hit to factory efficiency and pop consumption of every day goods...
    "We must teach them. We must take away their planes, their automatic weapons, their tanks, their artillery and teach them dignity".
    -For Whome the Bell Tolls.


    "Win first, and then fight."
    -Sun Tzu.


    so it is the great precept of nature to love ourselves only as we love our neighbour, or what comes to the same thing, as our neighbour is capable of loving us.

    Adam Smith, -Theory of Moral Sentiments.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Sovereign View Post
    I like Secret Masters post just above, bankrupt railroads impact factory efficiency and mean pops miss out on an everyday good for awhile (-> pissing them off a little, as happens here in the UK quite often actually). They can close too, but in effect I suppose the railroad is still there as far as troops moving around are concerned. Keep it simple.
    That means you can get all of the advantages by simply having a few centralized, large factories or by importing, and I don't think that is what you want.

  17. #17
    Covert Mastermind Demi Moderator Secret Master's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sovereign View Post
    Then their owners, the Aristocrats can pay for them...
    Yeah, but the catch of my plan is to use the maintenance goods penalty to output efficiency as a way to model railroad efficiency increases. Making aristocrats buy more would drive up demand, but I can't hurt RGO efficiency if no rail transport is available.

    If RGOs responded to maintenance goods, you could model all kinds of service industries in the same way as I talked about railroads. But alas, it is not to be.


    That means you can get all of the advantages by simply having a few centralized, large factories or by importing, and I don't think that is what you want.
    As for having a few centralized railroad "factories" being a problem of simulation, it would just represent fewer, bigger rail companies or foreign owned rail companies. Yeah, they should employ POPs all over the place, but as long as some POPs are employed at all, and as long as the railroads actually consume resources, thus making them an integral part of the economy, I think it would be okay. After all, part of what we want to see is a rail industry that provides the railroad bonuses to everyone, but that also consumes resources and makes a profit like it did historically. Obviously, it wouldn't be a perfect solution. But it would shift railroads from being magical efficiency unicorns to a real business with a real economic presence. (I also suspect that Paradox deliberately kept railroads as a provincial infrastructure building because they didn't want to include a full blown railroad mechanic and would have been dissatisfied with my "railroads as a factory" idea, which I completely understand.)

    But, as I said, it's all moot anyway. If you can't make RGOs play ball, then we're done talking about it. The real Nobel Prize in Victoria II modding would go to someone who can use existing game mechanics to simulate a shipping industry AND shipping costs that make regional sense. (Not just a blanket "clipper tax" on all goods sold overseas...)
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