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Thread: For the devs or WotR

  1. #1

    For the devs or WotR

    Yes, I'm also throwing my opinion into the pot cause I want to tell these devs a couple of things.

    I'm usually playing mount & blade warband - crpg. I suppose you've heard of it and know what it is. Actually it's one of the best mods warband has, although it's quite unbalance in some points. And as many other players I'm really looking forward to this game. But if you want many players and especially those who already play similar games, you have to give them something much better than for example crpg, otherwise they'll just stick to what they have.

    I'm just going to write down what I would love to see/ not to see in WotR:

    - Less awkward movements than in m&b. Blocking looks crappy and unrealistic in m&b and especially the stab animation with 1h/2h swords...noone would ever stab like that. A stab comes from below (around the hip) and aims usually for the stomach, not for the face. Please give us something better and more realistc

    - Please no stupid spin-around moves. Don't know if you know it, in m&b people can turn around 360° (while their polearm is in the ground o.O ) and then stab someone as if they were running at full speed --> crap

    - No stab and then pull it into the enemy. Works also in m&b: People stab and when the stab animation should actually be over they pull the sword/polearm from the side into their enemy, dealing the full pierce damage the stab would do --> crap

    - No jumpslashing or jumpshooting. Many people are really annoyed that it still works in m&b, even in crpg. People in a heavy plate armour with a big 2h sword jumping as if they were athletes, swining while jumping. Of course it's possible to do that, even in armour. But you would lose your balance and fall to the ground instead of hitting someone effectively --> jumphitting = crap (saw it in the trailer that people jump around there, hope you are not going to give us jumpfights like in m&b. I know a couple of people who have problems getting into m&b due to the jumpfighting. More realistic fighting than in m&b would be cool, otherwise people will stay there)

    - the hitboxes in m&b, related to the animation of swings. It's ridiculous that someone does an overhead swing and hits people behind him with that. Same goes for sideswings. I ask myself if anyone of the m&b devteam has ever had a sword in their hands. Probably not, otherwise these animations would be totally different. There is no need to raise a sword above and behind your head when you want to hit from above. Just raising it to a certain point is enough.

    - Polestun. Maybe you know it. People with polearms always stun people very badly, making it possible to spam people to death without them being able to do anything due to the stun. A slight stun for every weapon would be cool, cause getting hit hurts and would probably stop your movement. But having it only for 1 or 2 types of weapons and having it as it is in m&b (you stumble backwards for 1 or 2 meters) is crap

    - balance among the weapons. There shouldn't be a handful of weapons that are superior compared to all other weapons. Balance them please so that people can take what they like most and not what deals most damage. This goes for melee and ranged weapons.

    - Addition to the jumping: I saw something in the last trailer that someone jumped off a houseroof which was like 5 meters forward and from a height of 5 meters. Seriously? With an armour? Imagine the speed and force when you come down? My knees and ankles wouldn't be so happy about that and the last thing I would like to do after such a jump is fighting...more realism than in m&b please!

    - I don't know if you've decided anything about servers yet, but please make it 64 people per server. 32 is too little to be funny :/ More is not needed I think because then it will probably be to much concerning ping etc for players as I suppose you don't want only players with pro computers^^

    - Take something like the slotsystem crpg has. People shouldn't run around with shield, 1h sword, 2h sword and maybe a pike at the same time. I think 2 weapons should be maximum (+the little dagger you are going to put in)

    - Horses that are not heavily armoured should take a bit of damage when they bump through people. It's crap that an unarmoured horse bumps like 20 people without breaking its legs somewhere in between.

    - Please make the weaponspeed more or less realistic. It's ridiculous in crpg that people can spam a long heavy twohanded axe faster than someone can swing a short 1h sword. Less spam, more timing

    - Please don't balance referring to most whine like it is in crpg. Those who whine and complain most usually receive what they want there....balance shouldn't be done on the opinion of a person with a 2h sword without shield, who has a problem when someone is shooting him and thus requests a nerf to arrowdamage or similar. Just one example

    These are most of the points I found in my mind. If I find more, I'll write them down.
    I'm really looking forward to this game, but if it will be as unrealistic as mount and blade, I'm probably not going to buy it. I don't want a game that is like reallife fighting and 100% historically accurate and realistic, but m&b for example if far from being realistic :/

    Hope devs read this and keep these in mind.


    Cheers

  2. #2
    - Addition to the jumping: I saw something in the last trailer that someone jumped off a houseroof which was like 5 meters forward and from a height of 5 meters. Seriously? With an armour? Imagine the speed and force when you come down? My knees and ankles wouldn't be so happy about that and the last thing I would like to do after such a jump is fighting...more realism than in m&b please!- Addition to the jumping: I saw something in the last trailer that someone jumped off a houseroof which was like 5 meters forward and from a height of 5 meters. Seriously? With an armour? Imagine the speed and force when you come down? My knees and ankles wouldn't be so happy about that and the last thing I would like to do after such a jump is fighting...more realism than in m&b please!
    That's exactly what I thought while watching the scene. A full armored knight wouldn't ever jump off a roof. Totally unrealistic.

    - Take something like the slotsystem crpg has. People shouldn't run around with shield, 1h sword, 2h sword and maybe a pike at the same time. I think 2 weapons should be maximum (+the little dagger you are going to put in)
    While I do the same in Warband (1h sword + shield + spear) I actually don't like it :P It should only be possible to wear, say a 1h sword + shield + dagger, nothing more.
    And you shouldn't be able to make weapons magically appear out of your body like you do in Warband when picked up a weapon.

    - Horses that are not heavily armoured should take a bit of damage when they bump through people. It's crap that an unarmoured horse bumps like 20 people without breaking its legs somewhere in between.
    Actually horses are too weak in Warband. One guy with a spear can stop any horse. That shouldn't be possible. Infantry has to stick together and organize themselves to be able to cut down a mounted knight.

    I too want realistic animations and all. But M&B's fighting system is fun and challenging. This should really be conserved. I'll most certainly give WotR a go since it seems to be what I expected from a M&B successor: same fighting style with better graphics.

  3. #3
    I certainly want many things in the movement system from mount and blade preserved. Especially the mouse moving the waist on its axis, but perhaps more accurate movement with the arms.
    It would be great if blocking and striking was much more accurate too.

  4. #4
    If the horse doesn't have some sort of armour, it needs to be almost instantly killed, considering the beast is skin, flesh, and bones.

  5. #5
    Just saw there is a mistake in the headline :O I mean of, not or

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Kal_Zakath View Post
    Yes, I'm also throwing my opinion into the pot cause I want to tell these devs a couple of things.
    - Less awkward movements than in m&b. Blocking looks crappy and unrealistic in m&b and especially the stab animation with 1h/2h swords...noone would ever stab like that. A stab comes from below (around the hip) and aims usually for the stomach, not for the face. Please give us something better and more realistc
    Cheers
    I disagree few other points too (and agree with some), but don't have that much time now. Now.. The stabs. It is totally realistic to stab from the shoulder level. As it is from the hip too. Either way, with a stab you propably want a long reach, and you get longest reach by stabbing straight forward where your arm starts. And that is the shoulder. In that case the stab would propably be aimed at the face/upper torso.
    (+It is shown on the manuscripts: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...hoffer_018.jpg)

  7. #7
    Take something in your hands and try to stab with it in such a way. You might notice that it feels totally awkward and that you would never really stab effectively. Are you sure these manuscripts show a certain movement while fighting or maybe just fighting in general?
    Anyway, if that kind of stab stays inside I'll hope the hand animation will be less weird than in m&b

  8. #8
    Captain Digu21's Avatar

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    I do actually disagree at some points here, Im not sure about the horses as they havent been implemented yet. But dying almost instantly would be not fun. Stabbing from shoulder height into face/chest would be better, instead of from the hip.

    You can only have a 1handed weapon with a shield and the dagger. You are trading the main weapon slot for the shield, atleast what ive saw on the GDC video.

    They have told us that they will try to make as many players as the community wants, if the can provide that amount. That being if it is a laggy and crappy experience with 64 player, then even I wouldnt want that. But if they can make for example 128 players then they will do their best to provide that amount.

    And remember this is not M&B Warband, it is okay to compare it to it. But dont think that it will be a rip off, as far as ive seen only thing they have in common is the combat system which is similar. Not exactly the same.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Digu21 View Post
    And remember this is not M&B Warband, it is okay to compare it to it. But dont think that it will be a rip off, as far as ive seen only thing they have in common is the combat system which is similar. Not exactly the same.
    I'm hoping for an advancement. M&B was a good start for the genre... If Warband managed 222 players I want that in WotR, too
    At least 64 players is a must.

  10. #10
    That picture is from Talhoffer's Fechtbuch, showing techniques of fighting with a longsword. And yes, I've tried the thrust, it works. Take a look at this video, starting from 0:12, the guy with the black hat finishes with that thrust. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HC5FIyfI8TA
    In one handed sword, the guy is using his whole body to generate the power to the thrust. His shoulder starts from behind and moves forward while the guy twists his body. So I would say it would work also.

    I haven't tried CRPG so I can't comment on points referring to that... Turning while stabbing, going around in circles, maybe it's not very realistic, but it's hard to restric it in gameplay in any good way.

    I think the weapons are pretty balanced in native. Sure, the cheap ones suck, but that's pretty good and realistic thing I think. All factions one handed weapons for example: Elite scimitar, arming sword, sarranid guard sword, war sword, military cleaver and the ghergit sabre. They all have their good points I think. Sure, elite scimitar is really fast, but nord war sword is close to that, plus it can thrust. Rhodock cleaver is slower, but it's long and makes good damage. Etc.

    I agree with jump slashes and shooting. Although jump slashes gives a bit more to the fights. Maybe in a bit more subtle way it would work better, like, a leap rather than jump.

    Polestun. Haven't really noticed, exept with spears you can sometimes make two strikes before the enemy manages to block. But it still happens quite rarely. I don't find spamming very succesfull in warband (native). Everytime I meet a spammer I keep distance and just wait until I see a chance, then step in slashing on the head. Works almost always, even with one handed sword's shorter reach. All and all, the combat in warband works really well. Main thing I'd like to see, as a game mechanic, would be stamina.

    I think people should be able to run around with as many weapons as they want, as long as it is realistic and has penalty. Meaning, you can't magically hang your spear in our back, but you can have dagger and sword on the belt, shield on back and a longsword on your hand. Penalty would be added weight, so your guy moves slower.

    Horses cold be stronger than in warband, just for that "Oh s**t!" moment when you see a knight charging at you. In warband you can easily kill horse guys with one handed sword and it sort of kills that feeling.

    There's my thoughts. :P

  11. #11
    Well yeah, in the video the stab looks better^^ But it seems it requires that the other one is more or less walking into it. Or maybe it just looks like that and he still could stab him quite hard. Maybe it's just the animation in m&b that looks awful

    What I mean with the turn is that the person with a pike in his hands holds the mousebutton to have the stab ready and then bends down so the pike is in the ground and then turns 360° before he stabs which gives a massive speedbonus and is confusing.

    Small leap might be a cool thing, but jumping like an athlete shouldn't happen^^

    I don't talk about all the crappy cheap weapons, but in crpg for example there are 2 2h swords that more or less are superior to all others :/ Would like to see more variety.

    Armoured horse hard to kill is fine, actually it is like that in crpg. But an unarmoured horse shouldn't survive one hit at full speed^^ But what I mean is the bumping. People take damage when they are bumped by the horse. An armoured horse shouldn't receive much dmg from that, but a nonarmoured horse wouldn't do such a thing for long I suppose without hurting itself.

  12. #12
    Lt. General Comrade Chaos's Avatar
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    Horses tend not to run into things, but around them, hence scythed chariots.

  13. #13
    Lt. General Beowulf1990's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Comrade Chaos View Post
    Horses tend not to run into things, but around them, hence scythed chariots.
    Ah, scythed chariots. That's a good one for a "battlefield myths" discussion.

    Chariots did not use scythes in battle, that's as Hollywood as things get. The British charioteers are the only one that come to mind that actually used chariots consistently as shock troops, and they did indeed charge into enemy formations. Just like medieval heavy cavalty would do centuries later. Long story short, horses run into things just fine with a little training.
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  14. #14
    Are you saying that Dareios did not use scythed chariots against Alexander the Great in the Battle of Gaugamela?

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    Lt. General Beowulf1990's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sforzesco View Post
    Are you saying that Dareios did not use scythed chariots against Alexander the Great in the Battle of Gaugamela?
    I'm saying that I find that highly questionable.

    At the very least it would not be a common thing. I could see it used in parades and the like though.
    "There are no limits to what science can explore."

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  16. #16
    I have a couple of new things on my mind for devs, hope they read^^


    Doorbug in m&b: First round on siege the doors always has only half the hp they usually have, makes first round always easy for attacking teams.

    slowdown inside castles: when you walk around in a castle you walk with something like half your speed, as if you had glue on your feet -.-

    to the hitboxes: I don't know if it is whole m&b or only crpg, but it happens alot that people hit through someone and hit the person behind the guy they hit through -.-

    Please try not to put such things into wars of roses^^

  17. #17
    Lt. General Comrade Chaos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beowulf1990 View Post
    I'm saying that I find that highly questionable.

    At the very least it would not be a common thing. I could see it used in parades and the like though.
    The horses I ride seem desperately afraid of puddles (Makes me wonder how armies trained them, horses get jumpy at the wind). Horses hold some value in their own life seeing as they're animals and tend not to impale themselves.

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    Lt. General Beowulf1990's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Comrade Chaos View Post
    The horses I ride seem desperately afraid of puddles (Makes me wonder how armies trained them, horses get jumpy at the wind). Horses hold some value in their own life seeing as they're animals and tend not to impale themselves.
    Horses are dead easy to train, just need some patience. they are not the brightest of animals...

    Why was that relevant to my post though?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beowulf1990 View Post
    Horses are dead easy to train, just need some patience. they are not the brightest of animals...

    Why was that relevant to my post though?
    That whole "going around instead of just running into things" part.

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    Lt. General Beowulf1990's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Comrade Chaos View Post
    That whole "going around instead of just running into things" part.
    AH! ok, I was confused by you quoting the scythes on chariots thing. Which is completely irrelevant to that matter.

    Anyway, here is a slow motion modern version of what a horse formation charging into infantry would like like: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qhUTF4hOp8

    And here is some WWI footage of a cavalry formation, genuine footage mixed with what looks like post war film footage or something: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJUzPatn0eE

    Anyway, the bit between 2:00 and 3:00 should give a good idea of how a light cavalry charge would have looked. Surely you can see the sheer shock value in that? Even if they'd want to stop, they couldn't. Those horses would plow into any formation like...well, a plow. People are not stones, people react to a wall of charging cavalry, they get the fuck out of the way if they can.

    and that without any armour, the heavy knights of the later medieval period would be like bulldozers.
    "There are no limits to what science can explore."

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