current to classic ?

[Alex_brunius]

Anyway, my point was that a great game - just like AoD is - remains superior to similar games even if it uses "old" graphics... and both you and me (as well as many others) know that.

The problem is that it's the average Joe that pays for 90% of the development costs, not us diehard forum fans.
So if we want to see further development for games like these there is sadly really only three options:

1.) They get a decent graphics and interface to appeal to average Joe
2.) We start paying 10 times as much for the games
3.) The developers start working for free

[Titan79]

The problem is that it's the average Joe that pays for 90% of the development costs, not us diehard forum fans.
So if we want to see further development for games like these there is sadly really only three options:

1.) They get a decent graphics and interface to appeal to average Joe
2.) We start paying 10 times as much for the games
3.) The developers start working for free

I see what you mean. Well, to answer to your points,

1) Could be a good idea, but this would mean reworking a lot of other files (AI, map IDs etc.) so it would be a LOT of work for no guaranteed results.
2) Mmh, that's a good point. Not that I'd like to pay 10 times for a game, but e.g. an AoD expansion for 5 or 10€ would be a good idea, IMHO (well, I'd buy it for sure, at least).
3) As appealing as it may sound... no, it wouldn't be kind to them .

[Tegetthoff]

May I jump in here on a completely different tack:

Who is capable (i.e. know enough about map-modding) and willing (has a lot of time) to share in a map modding effort for CORE, for its 0.70 incarnation?
We cannot take over an existing map-mod due to the huge amount of modification involved, but to me the next obvious step after fully moving to the AoD system with 0.60 is a new map.
This has to be developed step by step, i.e. one province at a time, in a major effort.

The result would be the game that most people here seem to be wanting.

T.

[Fernando Torres]

EDIT: Or come to think of it, maybe it's an intentional pricing strategy, AoD meant to be in a role of "unattractive alternative", imagined to trigger something along those lines in a potential customer's head: "Let's see, AoD... this game costs 13.95 - not cheap for a spin-off of a classic that I already own... But wait... here's something totally similar, only with additional content(!) - new map(!), WWI scenario(!) - and just 70% of the other clone's price! What a deal! (Nevermind what it actually costs, it's a pure bargain.)"
Maybe this even works that way...

[Count of Reval]

Attachment 50699

Or one could just pick up and read Dan Ariely's Predictably Irrational or Thomas Nagle's The Strategy and Tactics of Pricing.

Is there many other explanations why AoD should cost more than DH a year after DH's release and two years after its own?

[^_AC_^]

Is there many other explanations why AoD should cost more than DH a year after DH's release and two years after its own?

2.) We start paying 10 times as much for the games

For example, developers get more money.

But the truth is that AFAIK the price of the game (I'm talking for DH but I'm pretty sure it's the same for AoD) is determined solely by Paradox, the publisher. THEY decide. They decided the price of AoD (AFAIK) when it was published and they decided the price of DH when it was published. Time passed, the world changed and a different price was chosen. Perhaps if DH was published in February 2010 and AoD in April 2011, DH would now cost 13 € and AoD 10 €. There's no "conspiracy" to make DH sell more than AoD, I'm pretty sure that Paradox isn't interested in intentionally hurting AoD.

If you are really interested in an answer, you might notice that even the price of Armageddon is still 5€ and the price of HOI2 complete is 13 €, the same as Aod (and it was released in 2010 too AFAIK). While it is normal for games that costs 40 € or 50 € to see their price reduced after a couple of years, games that always had a low price (5-15 €) usually keep that price much longer (not considering special sales and discounts, obviously).

[Serenissima]

We cannot take over an existing map-mod due to the huge amount of modification involved

Would this be true of a map-mod which is not even finished yet? (You must forgive me, I'm unfamiliar with exactly how the map modding process works.)

[Tegetthoff]

Well. I am also unfamiliar with map-modding, but by now I know a fair amount about the other aspects of modding.

A map modder will probably throw in a couple of hundred additional provinces, change their connectivity etc. You then have to rewrite all events, all ai files and all .inc files to match the new province numbers and arrangements.

The only way that I could envisage a major mod to move to a new map is to make the map step by step, or rather to go for a large mainly optical rework (new coastal outline, e.g.) and correct the most critical provinces (Reims, Bolzano/Trento, Yuling etc.) and modify the limited number of files associated with these provinces. The process is less spectacular map-wise, but mod and map will proceed and evolve hand in hand.

[Count of Reval]

For example, developers get more money.

But the truth is that AFAIK the price of the game (I'm talking for DH but I'm pretty sure it's the same for AoD) is determined solely by Paradox, the publisher. THEY decide. They decided the price of AoD (AFAIK) when it was published and they decided the price of DH when it was published. Time passed, the world changed and a different price was chosen. Perhaps if DH was published in February 2010 and AoD in April 2011, DH would now cost 13 € and AoD 10 €. There's no "conspiracy" to make DH sell more than AoD, I'm pretty sure that Paradox isn't interested in intentionally hurting AoD.

If you are really interested in an answer, you might notice that even the price of Armageddon is still 5€ and the price of HOI2 complete is 13 €, the same as Aod (and it was released in 2010 too AFAIK). While it is normal for games that costs 40 € or 50 € to see their price reduced after a couple of years, games that always had a low price (5-15 €) usually keep that price much longer (not considering special sales and discounts, obviously).

All I was saying is that the world has changed once again (as AoD was moved into classics-section) and maybe it would be worthwhile to reconsider game's price as a result. (Although, indeed, I am aware of the fact that even Paradox's customer-aware marketing department does not make its decisions based on forum posts. On the other hand, it can't be a reason not to bring up the question in the forum - most of us don't expect to shake the world with every act they commit.) I believe I haven't suggested anywhere that I think that AoD has been chosen as a target of "harassment" or that it is in a center of "conspiracy" (but an exaggeration based on misunderstanding and ridicule are useful tools in any debate). I just expressed between the lines a regret that it's rather unfortunate from the "AoD supporters" point of view that the game has to bear a weight of a higher price tag even in a current situation. A speculation that AoD as a low seller might be used with its higher kept price as a decision background or comparison anchor for propelling sales of DH was a mere guess - no need to search and find an offense there, I know I should have added a smile emoticon at the end of the text just in case. ("A higher price gets more money" argument doesn't answer the question why AoD should be more expensive than DH - especially as the former game is considered to have less obvious virtues in the eyes of an "average buyer".)

[bestmajor]

May I jump in here on a completely different tack:

Who is capable (i.e. know enough about map-modding) and willing (has a lot of time) to share in a map modding effort for CORE, for its 0.70 incarnation?
We cannot take over an existing map-mod due to the huge amount of modification involved, but to me the next obvious step after fully moving to the AoD system with 0.60 is a new map.
This has to be developed step by step, i.e. one province at a time, in a major effort.

The result would be the game that most people here seem to be wanting.

i would be interested if theres no hurry. i dont know much about map modding, but i also did not know much about paintings pics either. just it should come for everybody with a fixit pack, not only for CORE IMO.
but if you're looking for people betteropen a separate thread for it.


as for the price debate: GG sells HoI1 for 10€

[Count of Reval]

the price of HOI2 complete is 13 €

as for the price debate: GG sells HoI1 for 10€

Okay, and Hearts of Iron 2 Doomsday has a price tag near 20 €. Sorry, for idealistically believing in the logical pricing.

[Serenissima]

There's currently a rather impressive new modded map being made as a total conversion in DH, so it might be worth considering if it could be used for CORE.

[daniel1111]

the whole point of this thread was that aod still has a very active board and a good fan base..i still has major mods being made or updated..it was my point to see why it was moved and on what basis. a fancy map is nice but it is the mechanics that count

[Fernando Torres]

If you think DH is just about the map then you clearly don't know about this game.
So go ahead discussing AOD as it is perfectly fine and legitimate that people prefer it over other games.
But don't spread lies to undermine another game's reputation.

And as said, the whole "there's a Paradox conspiracy against AOD" was just nonsense.

[Pioniere]

I dont think there is an conspiracy against aod just that AOD is "old" and pardox want to focus on other tings. AOD was alo made by gamers that do not always have the same time for it as they use to.

I hope we get 1.8 to the zhe zummer then we have clazzy AOD. I will then use my new Tanna Tuva mini mode 8-)

[daniel1111]

thank you to the people that posted off topic and hi jacking this thread...it was never meant to compare one game to another. make your own thread for those things

[Count of Reval]

"there's a Paradox conspiracy against AOD"

Who said there was? It was your own biased interpretation about what has been said that coined the term. Of course, you could switch boldly even to another level and claim that there's a conspiracy theory around according to which AoD was developed with a sole purpose to price the game high and to enhance sales of DH through it. (This was more or less what I said, right?) Misunderstand something and create labels. Be persistent and don't give up. Be faithful to your false impression to the end.

After others have posted some prices of other HOI games meanwhile, it appears that GamersGate doesn't seem to follow very consistent pricing policy concerning older releases indeed. So, yes, it would be probably futile to expect to find any "sophisticated" pricing strategies behind those figures. My mistake. But I stay behind my main point that maybe AoD's price could be reviewed due to a changed situation. Sorry for the suggestion being off-topic.

thank you to the people that posted off topic and hi jacking this thread...it was never meant to compare one game to another. make your own thread for those things

This is Johan's post from the For the Glory sub-forum...

"Current game" is for those that game that is

1) recently released (within 6 months)

and/or

2) is still selling good and have a reasonably active community.

We have currently approximately 1 active thread per day in the AoD forum and I doubt it "is selling good" anymore either.

[daniel1111]

thank you that was the information i was looking for...

[VI Imre]

I've played both AoD and DH and one thing I can say that AoD supply system becomes a huge lag after WW2. The people who wanna go post WW2 will therefore choose DH, especially with older machines. DH also has a more lively community forums, with more active developers. DH has is also easier to mod. Decisions are as well very important feature to me.

On the other hand I prefer the DH sliders to the AoD national idias and advenced sliders. And of course you can also easily mod the ministers.

2 features left that make me AoD still attractive. The first is the supply system, the second is the manpower loss statistics sreen.
And the map should still be redesigned with two mayor principles. 1st: make the province borders neater and more "historical". 2nd don't add any new provinces and try to avoid changing their connections as well. This would hopefully satisfy both the modders and the community.

P.s. You see, I didn't even mention the DH map since it's not that much of a key feature to me, though it's neat.

[Tegetthoff]

I think you have touched a key point here: active developers in the forum.

When it game out, AoD was a pleasant change from HOI3, with the developers continuously online and listening to the suggestions from the forumites. Since about a year, they have completely disappeared.

Now DH has very active developers, posting even in other forums - see above. And it IS interesting to listen to the opinions of developers and understand the reasons why they make or made certain decisions.

As a modder, I have noticed that as soon as we post a bit in the CORE forum here, the sub-forum becomes active and if we devs stop to post, the sub-forum dies.